[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Sat Apr 30 07:00:16 UTC 2011
Joshua,
I feel like I should appologize- that last message was personally
insulting and I regret sending it. But please understand, if I could
send it again, the only part I'd remove would be the last sentence.
Islam is, at the core, a beautiful religion which is so similar to
Christianity. I know this because I know practicing Christians and
Muslims...it's a religion which I believe is inspired, at least in
part, by God. And it does make me angry when people who don't
understand it belittle something sacred-imagine how you'd feel when
people say Jesus is evil and Christianity is just a way to oppress and
control people. Of course it's not true- but most people who say that
don't know any better. Islam is a noble and good religion at its
core- and it makes me mad when noble and good things are mocked and
belittled, however ignorantly or well-intentioned. But I am sorry for
making this personal with my last message- on that front, I ask your
forgiveness.
God bless,
Kirt
On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joshua,
> They are told, as Christians are, to kill in self-defense. I'd
> suggest you try and understand this from the prospective of the
> Muslims before you make blanket statements like "muslims are
> instructed to kill," and "Christians were never instructed to do any
> of these things." Exodus says point-blank that you shouldn't suffer a
> witch to live---bingo! Let's go hang lots of supposed witches because
> the Bible says we can. Leviticus says it's ok to own slaves, even
> going into great detail as to how they should be treated-voila! God's
> on the side of the slave owners.
> Don't you see what I'm saying? Everything I just wrote probably
> sounds rediculous to you-as well it should. That's how the vast
> majority of Muslims feel when people say the Qu'ran gives license to
> kill or, god forbid, justifies terrorism! Think, here.
>
> On 4/30/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>> Muslems are instructed to do the same things.
>> The Christians were never instructed to do them.
>> Christians were never told to kill, Muslems are.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>>
>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joshua,
>>> What about the Salem witch trials? Those were Protestants...killing
>>> innocent people in the name of Christ. I know you'll say people who
>>> do that aren't real Christians- I agree with you! But the Muslims who
>>> are Terrorists aren't real Muslims either-the same standard applies.
>>>
>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Joshua,
>>>> Exactly! The Muslims that blow themselves up and kill innocent
>>>> people aren't real Muslims, either. That's my point!
>>>>
>>>> Blessings,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>>> The ones that threatened pain, or death, were not true Christians.
>>>>> The Nazis, were not real Christians, either.
>>>>> You know that.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Joshua, Barbara and all,
>>>>>> Was it love that forced Muslims and Jews to convert to
>>>>>> Christianity,
>>>>>> on pain of death, in the middle ages? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>> sent heratics and apostates to their executions, simply for
>>>>>> disagreeing with the church? Was it christlike love that sent
>>>>>> millions of Jews to the gas chambers? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>> supressed scientific knowledge for centuries, merely for
>>>>>> contradicting
>>>>>> church dogma? Was it Christlike love that pitted Christian against
>>>>>> Christian, Catholic against Protestant, Catholic and Protestant
>>>>>> against Anabaptist, and all these against the rest of the world in
>>>>>> bloody wanton war? Wait...none of that ever happened, Christians
>>>>>> never tried to impose our religion by force...because we're more
>>>>>> loving!
>>>>>> Please understand I'm being so vehement because I have Muslim
>>>>>> friends and I know, firsthand, it is not a religion of oppression any
>>>>>> more than Christianity is. The Quran has verses which say go to war
>>>>>> against the infidels who attack you first...the Old Testament has
>>>>>> similar verses of scripture. Just as most Christians do not impose,
>>>>>> on pain of death, their faith on anyone else...Most Muslims live by
>>>>>> their scriptures and live as good neighbors and peacable citizens.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> Islam is a religion of oppression, Christianity oppresses just as
>>>>>> much. It is a small minority of both religions, particularly in
>>>>>> moddern times, that seeks to impose their faith on others by force of
>>>>>> arms. Both Christianity and Islam have had their share of saints and
>>>>>> sinners- each religion has given birth to many good people and a few
>>>>>> evil ones...but please, for the love, don't pin labels on whole
>>>>>> religions just because a few verses of scripture _could_ be twisted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> support evil. Because, if that were true, Christianity would be just
>>>>>> as evil as Islam...and I can give you the Bible verses to back that
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> if you want.
>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Therefore, that makes it a religion of oppression.
>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>> but that verse is folloed by:
>>>>>>> "but if they surrender, then do not strike."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Barbara Hammel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I understand it, one glaring difference--among many--between
>>>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christian is that you have the choice to accept Christ. You are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> forced to follow the strict practices. Another difference is that
>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are told to kill the infidels. In the old Testament, God did tell
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Israelites to kill all the people in a place. But when Jesus came,
>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>> told us to love. We do not need to stone adulterers as Deuteronomy
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> Leviticus says. The law was given to us to see that we sin. "All
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When Jesus came, He
>>>>>>>> asked
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would cast the first stone. Christians are taught to love the
>>>>>>>> sinner
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> hate the sin. If a Christian turns to a different faith, we don't
>>>>>>>> disclaim them as Muslims--and others--do.
>>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are compelled by Jesus to share the gospel just as the Muslims
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been instructed to spread the Quran.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is not a matter of who's right,
>>>>>>>> but who's message is right for whom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:12 AM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> belonging to a church or not belonging has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> Christian as i understand it. it is the personal relationship we
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> with Christ that saves us. being a good person or not being a
>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> person has nothing to do with being a Christian either as i
>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>> it, i know a lot of folks who do not believe in any supreme being
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> some of the nicest folks i know, but they do not believe in Christ
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> or anything and if Christ is the only way to heaven then it would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to assume they would go to heaven, like i said, if we don't have
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> accept Christ as our Lord and Savior here on earth, why bother,
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> do as we please and then worry about salvation later? there would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> need to share the gospel if we didn't ahve to accept christ here.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:04 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>>>>>>>>>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>>>>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because of
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his life
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I
>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> is through Christ.
>>>>>>>>>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement is
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is the
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> who can judge.
>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of
>>>>>>>>>> person"
>>>>>>>>>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come along
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> blows
>>>>>>>>>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is
>>>>>>>>>> intended in
>>>>>>>>>> my choice of terms...)
>>>>>>>>>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength, and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>> to love neighbor as self. The thought crossed my mind that that
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen,
>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> current unbelievable tornados. Some people blame God for
>>>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can help.
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>>>>>>>>>> --le
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette"
>>>>>>>>>> <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>>>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to
>>>>>>>>>> reveal
>>>>>>>>>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way,
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ
>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>>>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of
>>>>>>>>>>> God?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fore
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how to you explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Him to sacrafice His life for our sins?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a Mormon,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ. I can't believe in a God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> views
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone. But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boils
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian. If the only Christians
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians. But, by that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian. For us as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground. Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God. If I'm understanding right, the biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid. So...for you, as a Catholic,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided? Partially inspired but ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistaken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offended,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all. That doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life. But I am curious, and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist? I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list? I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
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