[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

qubit lauraeaves at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 30 22:31:58 UTC 2011


Amy -- I am verry sorry -- I was not speaking to you, but to Joshua, whose mail you were replying to with your short reply.

I should have hunted around for Joshua's mail to reply directly, but the messages were arriving in my inbox out of order.

Again, I did not mean to point the finger at you.
I hope you'll forgive my slip-up.
If it happens again I will certainly make it obvious in my mail whom I am responding to.
Peace and blessings.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Ragain 
  To: qubit ; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion 
  Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 4:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


  here is a few resources from where I have gathered my info and beliefs! please check them out before dismissing them...
  they are both by Pastor Myles Holmes
  pastor of Collinsville Assimboly of God, Collinsville IL...I think their website is collinsvilleAG.org but am not sure...heres the links:


  Jesus Was Just a Good Man


  the truth bout Islam. "Islam, A Religion of Piece" http://bit.ly/dSlGvq




  On Apr 30, 2011, at 1:36 PM, qubit wrote:


    I am tired of the hostility toward a world religion by people who haven't 
    done their homework.
    Islam may well be in error, but making claims that aren't substantiated only 
    makes you look wrong as well.
    Of course, I don't know what your beliefs are either.
    But I have looked up enough material to know that some of the statements you 
    make are wrong.
    So perhaps you should update your references to get more accurate 
    information.
    --le
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Amy Ragain" <belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com>
    To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
    <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
    Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:19 AM
    Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


    amen!!

    On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:


      Jews and Muslems have been at war with each other, since the beginning.

      The Jews' God was Yahweh, and the Muslems worship Ala.

      Yahweh is the God of Isaac, (the Jews claim Isaac to be the father of

      the Jewish race.)

      Ishmael, (Isaac's half-brother,) is considered the father of the

      Arabic race, (Muslems.)

      They worship two separate gods.

      Yahweh, (to us,) is Jesus, because Jesus calls himself Yahweh, in

      John, 5, where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

      Yahweh semply means, I am.

      Ala is a named derived from the name of the moon god, worshiped by

      people in Muhammad's day.

      We, (Christians and Muslems,) do not both worship the same god.

      Christianity came out of Judaism, but Islam is its own separate religion.

      It's no secret, that Muslems hate Jews.

      In Arab countries, they teach the children to chant, "Arabs are

      beloved, Jews are dogs."

      They've fought, and fought.

      They will continue to fight, until Jesus comes again.

      I'm on the side of Israel, and I always will be.

      I know, that some Muslems are peaceful, but I'm refering to the

      popular Islam, that's talked about on the news.

      Blessings, Joshua



      On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:

        Well I'm not muslim so I won't defend them,

        but from what I understand he's the same name for our God.





        On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jeanette wrote:



          the old testament tells us ther is only one true God, as i understand it

          ala is not the one true god, he is a different god, sorry but that is 

          what

          i understand.

          ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"

          <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>

          To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of

          faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>

          Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:31 PM

          Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list





          Very interesting.

          Despite my firm belief in Jesus Christ, and the Catholic faith, I have

          also talked to Muslim friends of mine and we agree on many things.



          Interestingly enough, Islam itself is a word that means, submission to

          Allah (God), so it makes sense that Jesus was considered a good Muslim

          however, according to what I've read,

          there is no mention of Jesus after his birth in the Quran.

          Please let me know if you can tell me the versus in which his life and

          passion are referenced.



          I am a firm believer in Christianity but like to research other 

          religions

          as I believe this simply makes my understanding overall of other 

          people's

          religions and customs much better and thereby strengthens me as a

          believer.



          Jorge







          On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:32 PM, qubit wrote:



            Greetings again --

            This list has been active lately...



            I am not muslim, as defined by any of the branches of Islam, but I have 

            a

            brother who has read considerably the muslim writings including several

            translations of the Quran, and I also have read a little in the Quran 

            out

            of

            curiosity.

            I have read only through Surah 2, but it is true there are many good 

            and

            peaceful teachings in this part of the Quran.    However, like the 

            Bible,

            there are also harsh parts of the Quran that lead many to justify 

            violent

            behavior such as is in the news.  This however, is also true of the 

            Bible

            --

            there are parts of the Bible that can be twisted to justify a lot of

            unchristian behaviors.  (I'm not equating the Bible and the Quran --  

            they

            are very different.)

            Your statement that muslims don't believe Jesus is Christ actually is

            false.

            According to my brother, the Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, and in fact

            includes an interesting telling of Mary and the virgin conception of

            Jesus,

            plus a discussion of his life and crucifixion.  I'm afraid i don't know

            what

            it says about the resurrection, but according to my brother, the Quran

            refers to Jesus and his disciples as true muslims, because of their

            willingness to submit to God (Allah).

            My brother even compares the English translations to the original 

            Arabic,

            and has discovers some interesting information -- such as the word

            usually

            translated as "Christians" in the English translations of the Quran, is

            actually the name of a group of Arabs in Muhammad's time who had a 

            belief

            about Christianity that Muhammad disagreed with.  It has nothing to do

            with

            modern Christians, or even the Christians that fought in the crusades,

            which

            was centuries after Muhammad's time.



            Anyway, my brother also discovered inconsistencies in the various 

            English

            translations of the Quran -- one English version clashed in meaning 

            with

            the

            others.

            He also claims that if you look at the original Arabic, the verses in

            question agree with verses of the New Testament that discuss the 

            mission

            of

            Jesus and related things.  However, what he has found is that Christian

            and

            Muslim scholars believe the Bible and Quran clash, and when he tries to

            point out the verses in question, he is met with mixed reactions. The

            Christians he talks to find his discovery interesting, while the 

            muslims

            almost always get hot under the collar. He has even been escorted out 

            of

            places and asked not to come back...



            One verse in the Quran I found a little incredulous was Sura 2:256

            "There is no compulsion in religion..."

            I guess it surprised me.



            Sorry for the rambling.

            Funny thing: even with all the negative reaction my brother gets from

            most

            muslims who listen to him, he was told by one man that he thought my

            brother

            was a true muslim.  My brother took it as a compliment.



            I do want to say one thing more:

            i agree that there is some truth in all world religions, but that 

            doesn't

            mean all of their writings are correct or agree.

            I don't think you can put 2 religions -- like Christianity and Buddhism

            --

            side by side and find they are really the same.

            An example -- I once read the book "The Power of Myth", which tried to

            tie

            all the world's myths and religious beliefs together by looking for

            similarities.  I also saw the author interviewed on PBS.  It sounded

            interested, until I got to the part where Buddhism and Christianity 

            were

            discussed.  The author actually tried to equate the missions of Buddha

            and

            Jesus.

            I knew a lot about Christianity, and not so much about Buddhism, but 

            the

            discussion didn't feel right. I read a little more about Buddha and my

            conclusion were that while Jesus and Buddha were compassionate 

            spiritual

            leaders, their missions were quite different.  I also didn't feel like 

            it

            was appropriate to call Jesus a myth.    The author also misrepresented

            or

            took liberties with the story told in scripture, which I felt he 

            couldn't

            do. I also felt that if he couldn't get Christianity right, which I did

            have

            a knowledge about, how could I trust what he had to say about the other

            religions?  I would rather research themby talking to persons who live

            them.



            Anyway, have a nice evening.

            --le





            ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"

            <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>

            To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"

            <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>

            Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM

            Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list





            Alan:

            With all due respect,

            you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.

            For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?

            You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.



            What he means by the Father threw me is simple:

            if you know him, you know the father.



            But… and this is an important point,

            it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not 

            recognize

            Jesus.



            After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their

            codes

            of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.



            There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to 

            shae

            with their devotion to God.



            Are you saying they are bound to hell?



            Not attacking you, just wondering.



            Jorge





            On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:



              No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:

              John 14



              2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have

              told

              you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

              3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take 

              you

              to

              be with me that you also may be where I am.

              4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

              5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so 

              how

              can

              we know the way?”

              6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one

              comes

              to

              the Father except through me.

              7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. >From now 

              on,

              you

              do know him and have seen him.”





              Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life," 

              but

              rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the

              word

              "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus 

              was,

              in

              essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.





              -----Original Message-----

              From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org

              [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]

              On Behalf Of Jorge Paez

              Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM

              To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion

              Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list



              Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.



              I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then

              not

              to believe in Christ.





              On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:



                the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked 

                forward

                to

              Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal

              himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is

              my

              personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will 

              go

              to

              heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made 

              on

              the

              cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no

              need

              for hell either.

                ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"

                <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>

                To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"

                <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>

                Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM

                Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list





                  I say Gandi is in heaven.

                  Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's

                  commandments

              though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.



                  Because, if you think of it,

                  would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because

                  they

              did not know him?



                  It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but

                  for

              those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.



                  It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know 

                  Christ,

              then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."



                  This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on 

                  the

              outside, even athiests have been shown some light?



                  Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?







                  On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:



                    I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that

                    belief with the fact that most people throughout history either

                    never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will 

                    someone

                    like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go

                    to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he 

                    was

              here?



                    On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:

                      any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there

                      fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, 

                      just

                      what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how

                      to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice  His life for our 

                      sins?

                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>

                      To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"

                      <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>

                      Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM

                      Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list





                        Kirt:

                        I agree with your view,

                        my difference being that although all are children of God, only

                        those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or

                        not.



                        And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory 

                        has

                        been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember

                        his name prior to this.



                        This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic

                        church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by

                        the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable 

                        source.



                        Jorge

                        On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:



                          Jorge,

                          My church teaches that all humans are children of God.

                          Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,

                          Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a

                          spirit child of god.

                          Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous

                          christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an

                          idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall

                          the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have

                          access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a

                          Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in

                          this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear

                          the gospel of Christ.  Were this not true, God would not be a

                          fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been

                          billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus

                          Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely

                          because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or

                          because they chose to live by their original faith instead,

                          without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I believe

                          that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims 

                          and

                          HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people 

                          who

                          believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, 

                          they

                          will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his

                          commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,

                          though.  I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just

                          because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe 

                          they

              are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.

                          Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.

                          Best,

                          Kirt



                          On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:

                            Hello Kirt:

                            I agree with you completely.



                            In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you 

                            will

                            see that Christians started out as one group.

                            Then for various reasons,

                            divided,

                            so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.

                            But,

                            that brings me to my point.

                            What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for

                            "children of God?"



                            I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in

                            Jesus Christ.



                            But then  how do we define "children of God?"

                            Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their

                            views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?



                            Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define 

                            "Christian?"



                            Just food for thought.





                            Jorge













                            On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:



                              Dear list,

                              I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please

                              understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend

                              to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own

                              faith on anyone.  But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I

                              want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.

                              John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not

                              identify themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why,

                              although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It

                              ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian.  If

                              the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,

                              and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't

                              Christians.  But, by that definition, you're excluding some of

                              the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua Lester, a

              oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.

                              Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a

              Christian?

                              His understanding of God as one person is as different from 

                              the

                              traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three

                              separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather

                              than

              substance.

                              Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in 

                              the

                              world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.

                              So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't

                              exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me,

                              it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and

                              relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is 

                              a

                              Christian.  For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral

                              guide for an excelent life.  He isn't just an inspired teacher

                              or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,

              ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.

                              Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning

                              sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us 

                              for

                              eternity.  In my book, if you agree with that, you're a

                              Christian.  So despite the numerous and significant 

                              theological

                              differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and

                              Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that

              common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?

                              Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,

                              "yes!"

                              Warmest regards,

                              Kirt



                              On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:

                                Kirt,



                                This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really

                                embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this

                                case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the

                                information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole

                                list.



                                Blessed Easter,

                                John



                                On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring 

                                wrote:

                                o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to 

                                John,

                                o> but it

                                went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.



                                On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>

                                wrote:

                                Kirt:

                                I do believe you are right in the divisions.

                                I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study 

                                the

                                2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),

                                and we're currently studying the reformation in school.



                                According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at

                                that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it

                                impossible for the "common people" to read, while the

                                protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first

                                to start reading the bible in common languages, believing

                                that the bible should be read and understood by each and

                                every believer.



                                Am I correct?



                                Jorge





                                On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:



                                John,

                                I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your

                                answers about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm

                                understanding right, it is your belief that the

                                majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is

                                simply clarifying the revelation already given.

                                In

                                other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete

                                Revelation of God.  If I'm understanding right, the 

                                biggest

                                disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter

                                of interpretation of the Bible.

                                For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided

                                by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only

                                "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant

                                Christianity it is more open



                                to

                                the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge

                                generalization, but would you say I'm right there?

                                Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you

                                made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph

                                Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid.  So...for

                                you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?

                                Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it 

                                too

                                far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want

                                your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it

                                personally.

                                And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say

                                escential.

                                I think there's much to learn from all religions, and

                                personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all.  That

                                doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,

                                but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.

                                I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with

                                the idea of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your

              thoughts on it?

                                God bless,

                                Kirt



                                On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:

                                I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious

              dialog.

                                In

                                fact, I think that is part of my particular work of

                                evangelization.

                                If

                                you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will

                                see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think

                                that my work of evangelization is to spread these

                                attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.



                                John



                                On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring

              wrote:

                                Dear list,

                                I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer 

                                requests

                                and discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of 

                                the

                                few worthwhile distractions in life.  But I am curious,

                                and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any

                                non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist?  I

                                don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to

                                turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very

                                interested in talking with and learning from people from

                                other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind

                                talking, would you please email me off-list?  I won't

                                procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.

                                I just want a friendly dialogue.

                                God bless,

                                Kirt



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                                Ministry,

                                Inc.

                                http://www.godtouches.org

                                Madison, Wisconsin, USA

                                Peace, Love, Service





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