[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
qubit
lauraeaves at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 30 22:31:58 UTC 2011
Amy -- I am verry sorry -- I was not speaking to you, but to Joshua, whose mail you were replying to with your short reply.
I should have hunted around for Joshua's mail to reply directly, but the messages were arriving in my inbox out of order.
Again, I did not mean to point the finger at you.
I hope you'll forgive my slip-up.
If it happens again I will certainly make it obvious in my mail whom I am responding to.
Peace and blessings.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: Amy Ragain
To: qubit ; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
here is a few resources from where I have gathered my info and beliefs! please check them out before dismissing them...
they are both by Pastor Myles Holmes
pastor of Collinsville Assimboly of God, Collinsville IL...I think their website is collinsvilleAG.org but am not sure...heres the links:
Jesus Was Just a Good Man
the truth bout Islam. "Islam, A Religion of Piece" http://bit.ly/dSlGvq
On Apr 30, 2011, at 1:36 PM, qubit wrote:
I am tired of the hostility toward a world religion by people who haven't
done their homework.
Islam may well be in error, but making claims that aren't substantiated only
makes you look wrong as well.
Of course, I don't know what your beliefs are either.
But I have looked up enough material to know that some of the statements you
make are wrong.
So perhaps you should update your references to get more accurate
information.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Ragain" <belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
amen!!
On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
Jews and Muslems have been at war with each other, since the beginning.
The Jews' God was Yahweh, and the Muslems worship Ala.
Yahweh is the God of Isaac, (the Jews claim Isaac to be the father of
the Jewish race.)
Ishmael, (Isaac's half-brother,) is considered the father of the
Arabic race, (Muslems.)
They worship two separate gods.
Yahweh, (to us,) is Jesus, because Jesus calls himself Yahweh, in
John, 5, where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
Yahweh semply means, I am.
Ala is a named derived from the name of the moon god, worshiped by
people in Muhammad's day.
We, (Christians and Muslems,) do not both worship the same god.
Christianity came out of Judaism, but Islam is its own separate religion.
It's no secret, that Muslems hate Jews.
In Arab countries, they teach the children to chant, "Arabs are
beloved, Jews are dogs."
They've fought, and fought.
They will continue to fight, until Jesus comes again.
I'm on the side of Israel, and I always will be.
I know, that some Muslems are peaceful, but I'm refering to the
popular Islam, that's talked about on the news.
Blessings, Joshua
On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
Well I'm not muslim so I won't defend them,
but from what I understand he's the same name for our God.
On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jeanette wrote:
the old testament tells us ther is only one true God, as i understand it
ala is not the one true god, he is a different god, sorry but that is
what
i understand.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
<computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Very interesting.
Despite my firm belief in Jesus Christ, and the Catholic faith, I have
also talked to Muslim friends of mine and we agree on many things.
Interestingly enough, Islam itself is a word that means, submission to
Allah (God), so it makes sense that Jesus was considered a good Muslim
however, according to what I've read,
there is no mention of Jesus after his birth in the Quran.
Please let me know if you can tell me the versus in which his life and
passion are referenced.
I am a firm believer in Christianity but like to research other
religions
as I believe this simply makes my understanding overall of other
people's
religions and customs much better and thereby strengthens me as a
believer.
Jorge
On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:32 PM, qubit wrote:
Greetings again --
This list has been active lately...
I am not muslim, as defined by any of the branches of Islam, but I have
a
brother who has read considerably the muslim writings including several
translations of the Quran, and I also have read a little in the Quran
out
of
curiosity.
I have read only through Surah 2, but it is true there are many good
and
peaceful teachings in this part of the Quran. However, like the
Bible,
there are also harsh parts of the Quran that lead many to justify
violent
behavior such as is in the news. This however, is also true of the
Bible
--
there are parts of the Bible that can be twisted to justify a lot of
unchristian behaviors. (I'm not equating the Bible and the Quran --
they
are very different.)
Your statement that muslims don't believe Jesus is Christ actually is
false.
According to my brother, the Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, and in fact
includes an interesting telling of Mary and the virgin conception of
Jesus,
plus a discussion of his life and crucifixion. I'm afraid i don't know
what
it says about the resurrection, but according to my brother, the Quran
refers to Jesus and his disciples as true muslims, because of their
willingness to submit to God (Allah).
My brother even compares the English translations to the original
Arabic,
and has discovers some interesting information -- such as the word
usually
translated as "Christians" in the English translations of the Quran, is
actually the name of a group of Arabs in Muhammad's time who had a
belief
about Christianity that Muhammad disagreed with. It has nothing to do
with
modern Christians, or even the Christians that fought in the crusades,
which
was centuries after Muhammad's time.
Anyway, my brother also discovered inconsistencies in the various
English
translations of the Quran -- one English version clashed in meaning
with
the
others.
He also claims that if you look at the original Arabic, the verses in
question agree with verses of the New Testament that discuss the
mission
of
Jesus and related things. However, what he has found is that Christian
and
Muslim scholars believe the Bible and Quran clash, and when he tries to
point out the verses in question, he is met with mixed reactions. The
Christians he talks to find his discovery interesting, while the
muslims
almost always get hot under the collar. He has even been escorted out
of
places and asked not to come back...
One verse in the Quran I found a little incredulous was Sura 2:256
"There is no compulsion in religion..."
I guess it surprised me.
Sorry for the rambling.
Funny thing: even with all the negative reaction my brother gets from
most
muslims who listen to him, he was told by one man that he thought my
brother
was a true muslim. My brother took it as a compliment.
I do want to say one thing more:
i agree that there is some truth in all world religions, but that
doesn't
mean all of their writings are correct or agree.
I don't think you can put 2 religions -- like Christianity and Buddhism
--
side by side and find they are really the same.
An example -- I once read the book "The Power of Myth", which tried to
tie
all the world's myths and religious beliefs together by looking for
similarities. I also saw the author interviewed on PBS. It sounded
interested, until I got to the part where Buddhism and Christianity
were
discussed. The author actually tried to equate the missions of Buddha
and
Jesus.
I knew a lot about Christianity, and not so much about Buddhism, but
the
discussion didn't feel right. I read a little more about Buddha and my
conclusion were that while Jesus and Buddha were compassionate
spiritual
leaders, their missions were quite different. I also didn't feel like
it
was appropriate to call Jesus a myth. The author also misrepresented
or
took liberties with the story told in scripture, which I felt he
couldn't
do. I also felt that if he couldn't get Christianity right, which I did
have
a knowledge about, how could I trust what he had to say about the other
religions? I would rather research themby talking to persons who live
them.
Anyway, have a nice evening.
--le
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
<computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Alan:
With all due respect,
you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.
For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?
You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.
What he means by the Father threw me is simple:
if you know him, you know the father.
But… and this is an important point,
it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not
recognize
Jesus.
After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their
codes
of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.
There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to
shae
with their devotion to God.
Are you saying they are bound to hell?
Not attacking you, just wondering.
Jorge
On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
John 14
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
told
you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take
you
to
be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so
how
can
we know the way?”
6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes
to
the Father except through me.
7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. >From now
on,
you
do know him and have seen him.”
Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life,"
but
rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the
word
"the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus
was,
in
essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then
not
to believe in Christ.
On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
forward
to
Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
my
personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will
go
to
heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made
on
the
cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there is no
need
for hell either.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
<computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
I say Gandi is in heaven.
Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
commandments
though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
Because, if you think of it,
would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
they
did not know him?
It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
for
those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
Christ,
then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on
the
outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will
someone
like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he
was
here?
On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone,
just
what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how
to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice His life for our
sins?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Kirt:
I agree with your view,
my difference being that although all are children of God, only
those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
not.
And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory
has
been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember
his name prior to this.
This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable
source.
Jorge
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
Jorge,
My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
spirit child of god.
Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a
Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
the gospel of Christ. Were this not true, God would not be a
fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
Christ. I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
without really understanding what Christ offers. So, I believe
that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
and
HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
who
believed all manner of religions while living here on earth,
they
will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,
though. I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just
because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe
they
are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
Best,
Kirt
On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Kirt:
I agree with you completely.
In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you
will
see that Christians started out as one group.
Then for various reasons,
divided,
so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
But,
that brings me to my point.
What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
"children of God?"
I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
Jesus Christ.
But then how do we define "children of God?"
Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
"Christian?"
Just food for thought.
Jorge
On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
Dear list,
I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
faith on anyone. But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
identify themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian. If
the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
Christians. But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
the most Christian people among us. Consider Joshua Lester, a
oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
Christian?
His understanding of God as one person is as different from
the
traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
than
substance.
Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in
the
world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me,
it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is
a
Christian. For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
guide for an excelent life. He isn't just an inspired teacher
or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us
for
eternity. In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
Christian. So despite the numerous and significant
theological
differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and
Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that
common ground. Are Mormons Christian?
Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer, emphatically,
"yes!"
Warmest regards,
Kirt
On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
Kirt,
This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
list.
Blessed Easter,
John
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
wrote:
o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
John,
o> but it
went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
wrote:
Kirt:
I do believe you are right in the divisions.
I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study
the
2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
that the bible should be read and understood by each and
every believer.
Am I correct?
Jorge
On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
John,
I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for your
answers about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
understanding right, it is your belief that the
majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
simply clarifying the revelation already given.
In
other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
Revelation of God. If I'm understanding right, the
biggest
disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter
of interpretation of the Bible.
For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
"correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
Christianity it is more open
to
the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid. So...for
you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it
too
far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get offended, I want
your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
personally.
And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
escential.
I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all. That
doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
I have one other question for you. Are you familiar with
the idea of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
thoughts on it?
God bless,
Kirt
On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
dialog.
In
fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
evangelization.
If
you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
that my work of evangelization is to spread these
attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
John
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
wrote:
Dear list,
I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
requests
and discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
the
few worthwhile distractions in life. But I am curious,
and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any
non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist? I
don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to
turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
interested in talking with and learning from people from
other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind
talking, would you please email me off-list? I won't
procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
I just want a friendly dialogue.
God bless,
Kirt
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