[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Joshua Lester
jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Sun May 1 03:56:51 UTC 2011
Amen.
Thanks for that post, Sister Jeanette.
Blessings, Joshua
On 4/30/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> not all fundamentalists are narrow minded folks as you say, and they do
> research and read on their own, how unkind to generalize folks who you
> obviously know nothing about, how judgemental, we are to love all folks
> whether we agree with them or not, it is unkind to say such things just as
> it is unkind to say things that are not necessarily true about mormans,
> catholics and such. jeanette
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlotte Czarnecki" <charlotte.czarnecki at gmail.com>
> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
>
> Fundamentalists do not read or research. They only have the bible and they
> take things in that way out of context. They also just believe what they
> are told by their pastors or popular preachers which could be lies. We all
> just need to quit arguing and respect one another no jmatter what the
> religion. The complete truth will be revealed one day and I'll bet a little
> of everything will be it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
>
> I am tired of the hostility toward a world religion by people who haven't
> done their homework.
> Islam may well be in error, but making claims that aren't substantiated only
> makes you look wrong as well.
> Of course, I don't know what your beliefs are either.
> But I have looked up enough material to know that some of the statements you
> make are wrong.
> So perhaps you should update your references to get more accurate
> information.
> --le
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amy Ragain" <belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
>
> amen!!
>
> On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>
>> Jews and Muslems have been at war with each other, since the beginning.
>> The Jews' God was Yahweh, and the Muslems worship Ala.
>> Yahweh is the God of Isaac, (the Jews claim Isaac to be the father of
>> the Jewish race.)
>> Ishmael, (Isaac's half-brother,) is considered the father of the
>> Arabic race, (Muslems.)
>> They worship two separate gods.
>> Yahweh, (to us,) is Jesus, because Jesus calls himself Yahweh, in
>> John, 5, where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
>> Yahweh semply means, I am.
>> Ala is a named derived from the name of the moon god, worshiped by
>> people in Muhammad's day.
>> We, (Christians and Muslems,) do not both worship the same god.
>> Christianity came out of Judaism, but Islam is its own separate religion.
>> It's no secret, that Muslems hate Jews.
>> In Arab countries, they teach the children to chant, "Arabs are
>> beloved, Jews are dogs."
>> They've fought, and fought.
>> They will continue to fight, until Jesus comes again.
>> I'm on the side of Israel, and I always will be.
>> I know, that some Muslems are peaceful, but I'm refering to the
>> popular Islam, that's talked about on the news.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well I'm not muslim so I won't defend them,
>>> but from what I understand he's the same name for our God.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>
>>>> the old testament tells us ther is only one true God, as i understand it
>>>> ala is not the one true god, he is a different god, sorry but that is
>>>> what
>>>> i understand.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Very interesting.
>>>> Despite my firm belief in Jesus Christ, and the Catholic faith, I have
>>>> also talked to Muslim friends of mine and we agree on many things.
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly enough, Islam itself is a word that means, submission to
>>>> Allah (God), so it makes sense that Jesus was considered a good Muslim
>>>> however, according to what I've read,
>>>> there is no mention of Jesus after his birth in the Quran.
>>>> Please let me know if you can tell me the versus in which his life and
>>>> passion are referenced.
>>>>
>>>> I am a firm believer in Christianity but like to research other
>>>> religions
>>>> as I believe this simply makes my understanding overall of other
>>>> people's
>>>> religions and customs much better and thereby strengthens me as a
>>>> believer.
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:32 PM, qubit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Greetings again --
>>>>> This list has been active lately...
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not muslim, as defined by any of the branches of Islam, but I have
>>>>> a
>>>>> brother who has read considerably the muslim writings including several
>>>>> translations of the Quran, and I also have read a little in the Quran
>>>>> out
>>>>> of
>>>>> curiosity.
>>>>> I have read only through Surah 2, but it is true there are many good
>>>>> and
>>>>> peaceful teachings in this part of the Quran. However, like the
>>>>> Bible,
>>>>> there are also harsh parts of the Quran that lead many to justify
>>>>> violent
>>>>> behavior such as is in the news. This however, is also true of the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> --
>>>>> there are parts of the Bible that can be twisted to justify a lot of
>>>>> unchristian behaviors. (I'm not equating the Bible and the Quran --
>>>>> they
>>>>> are very different.)
>>>>> Your statement that muslims don't believe Jesus is Christ actually is
>>>>> false.
>>>>> According to my brother, the Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, and in fact
>>>>> includes an interesting telling of Mary and the virgin conception of
>>>>> Jesus,
>>>>> plus a discussion of his life and crucifixion. I'm afraid i don't know
>>>>> what
>>>>> it says about the resurrection, but according to my brother, the Quran
>>>>> refers to Jesus and his disciples as true muslims, because of their
>>>>> willingness to submit to God (Allah).
>>>>> My brother even compares the English translations to the original
>>>>> Arabic,
>>>>> and has discovers some interesting information -- such as the word
>>>>> usually
>>>>> translated as "Christians" in the English translations of the Quran, is
>>>>> actually the name of a group of Arabs in Muhammad's time who had a
>>>>> belief
>>>>> about Christianity that Muhammad disagreed with. It has nothing to do
>>>>> with
>>>>> modern Christians, or even the Christians that fought in the crusades,
>>>>> which
>>>>> was centuries after Muhammad's time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, my brother also discovered inconsistencies in the various
>>>>> English
>>>>> translations of the Quran -- one English version clashed in meaning
>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> others.
>>>>> He also claims that if you look at the original Arabic, the verses in
>>>>> question agree with verses of the New Testament that discuss the
>>>>> mission
>>>>> of
>>>>> Jesus and related things. However, what he has found is that Christian
>>>>> and
>>>>> Muslim scholars believe the Bible and Quran clash, and when he tries to
>>>>> point out the verses in question, he is met with mixed reactions. The
>>>>> Christians he talks to find his discovery interesting, while the
>>>>> muslims
>>>>> almost always get hot under the collar. He has even been escorted out
>>>>> of
>>>>> places and asked not to come back...
>>>>>
>>>>> One verse in the Quran I found a little incredulous was Sura 2:256
>>>>> "There is no compulsion in religion..."
>>>>> I guess it surprised me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the rambling.
>>>>> Funny thing: even with all the negative reaction my brother gets from
>>>>> most
>>>>> muslims who listen to him, he was told by one man that he thought my
>>>>> brother
>>>>> was a true muslim. My brother took it as a compliment.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do want to say one thing more:
>>>>> i agree that there is some truth in all world religions, but that
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> mean all of their writings are correct or agree.
>>>>> I don't think you can put 2 religions -- like Christianity and Buddhism
>>>>> --
>>>>> side by side and find they are really the same.
>>>>> An example -- I once read the book "The Power of Myth", which tried to
>>>>> tie
>>>>> all the world's myths and religious beliefs together by looking for
>>>>> similarities. I also saw the author interviewed on PBS. It sounded
>>>>> interested, until I got to the part where Buddhism and Christianity
>>>>> were
>>>>> discussed. The author actually tried to equate the missions of Buddha
>>>>> and
>>>>> Jesus.
>>>>> I knew a lot about Christianity, and not so much about Buddhism, but
>>>>> the
>>>>> discussion didn't feel right. I read a little more about Buddha and my
>>>>> conclusion were that while Jesus and Buddha were compassionate
>>>>> spiritual
>>>>> leaders, their missions were quite different. I also didn't feel like
>>>>> it
>>>>> was appropriate to call Jesus a myth. The author also misrepresented
>>>>> or
>>>>> took liberties with the story told in scripture, which I felt he
>>>>> couldn't
>>>>> do. I also felt that if he couldn't get Christianity right, which I did
>>>>> have
>>>>> a knowledge about, how could I trust what he had to say about the other
>>>>> religions? I would rather research themby talking to persons who live
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, have a nice evening.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan:
>>>>> With all due respect,
>>>>> you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.
>>>>> For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?
>>>>> You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> What he means by the Father threw me is simple:
>>>>> if you know him, you know the father.
>>>>>
>>>>> But… and this is an important point,
>>>>> it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not
>>>>> recognize
>>>>> Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>> After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their
>>>>> codes
>>>>> of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to
>>>>> shae
>>>>> with their devotion to God.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you saying they are bound to hell?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not attacking you, just wondering.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
>>>>>> John 14
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
>>>>>> told
>>>>>> you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
>>>>>> 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be with me that you also may be where I am.
>>>>>> 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
>>>>>> 5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> we know the way?”
>>>>>> 6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
>>>>>> comes
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the Father except through me.
>>>>>> 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now
>>>>>> on,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> do know him and have seen him.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life,"
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the
>>>>>> word
>>>>>> "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus
>>>>>> was,
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> to believe in Christ.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>>>>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there is no
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>>>>> never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will
>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>> like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>>>>> to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>> here?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>>>>> fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone,
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how
>>>>>>>>>> to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice His life for our
>>>>>>>>>> sins?
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God, only
>>>>>>>>>>> those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember
>>>>>>>>>>> his name prior to this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>>> church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
>>>>>>>>>>> the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable
>>>>>>>>>>> source.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit child of god.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>>>>>> idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>>>>> the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>>>>> access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
>>>>>>>>>>>> this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
>>>>>>>>>>>> the gospel of Christ. Were this not true, God would not be a
>>>>>>>>>>>> fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
>>>>>>>>>>>> billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ. I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
>>>>>>>>>>>> because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
>>>>>>>>>>>> without really understanding what Christ offers. So, I believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth,
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,
>>>>>>>>>>>> though. I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just
>>>>>>>>>>>> because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith on anyone. But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians. But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most Christian people among us. Consider Joshua Lester, a
>>>>>> oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian. For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide for an excelent life. He isn't just an inspired teacher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
>>>>>> ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity. In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian. So despite the numerous and significant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that
>>>>>> common ground. Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the bible should be read and understood by each and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation of God. If I'm understanding right, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid. So...for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>>>>>> thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my work of evangelization is to spread these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few worthwhile distractions in life. But I am curious,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in talking with and learning from people from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking, would you please email me off-list? I won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/j
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ohn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ki
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> putertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/compu
>>>>>>>>>>>> tertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettie
>>>>>>>>>>> cosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.cr
>>>>>>>>>> azydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computer
>>>>>>>>> techjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecos
>>>>>>>> p%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte
>>>>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler65%40win
>>>>>> dstream.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk:
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>
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