[Faith-talk] once saved always saved????

Sat May 11 06:53:49 UTC 2013

Linda,
  I appreciate your honest response to my concerns.  I hope you
understand that I'm not sharing my opinions merely for the sake of
contention; all these questions come from careful study of the Bible
and, in fact, years of unanswered prayers.  I won't claim to be as
literate in the Bible as some of you doubtless are but I can honestly
say I know it fairly well and, yes, I've seen inconsistancies and
contradictions a plenty.  And I'm not merely looking to criticize
anything I possibly can just for the sake of argument; I feel my
concerns are legitimate and justified.
  Furthermore, while in Christian Theology the New Testament is
obviously the centerpiece of the Bible, the Old Testament is
definitely an integral part.  And I'm genuinely curious how you can
read Jehovah command his people "thou shalt not murder" and then turn
around a couple books later and command his people to slaughter entire
nations, women and children included.  This is directly sanctioned and
commanded by Jehovah numerous times in the old testament; feel free to
look up Deuteronomy chapter 7, numbers 21, numbers 25, numbers 31,
Deuteronomy chapter 20 verses 10-17, and numerous other instances
where God is clearly telling the Israelites to blatantly defy his
earlier commandment not to murder.  If you don't see that as a double
standard, and I'll say as respectfully as I can that it boggles my
mind how you can not, can you at least understand how I might be a
sincere ethical person and view it that way?
  Now, as to your point about the original greek and hebrew.  First
off, especially where the new testament i concerned, I don't think we
have the "original" anything.  Sure, as Greg pointed out in an earlier
post, we have enough fragments of manuscripts that we can reliably
piece together, for the most part, most of the New Testament; I'll
freely admit this is not my area of expertise, but I believe that's
especially true of the Paulene epistles.  Anyways I'm afraid I'm
getting sidetracked...but even from the greek and Hebrew we have,
which is far from "original" the translations become more problematic.
 For example, in many places where you have the word "servant" in the
KJV, the greek word is more accurately rendered as "slave."  I'm
afraid if I keep going too much longer on this train of thought I'll
be terribly out of my depth, but I think I have enough of a layman's
understanding of the Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible to know
that these huge moral dilemmas can't all be put to bed by saying "the
real meaning got lost in translation somewhere."
  As for burning in hell forever...you might be surprised to find I
wasn't being flippant in the slightest.  At least, I wasn't intending
to be.  The idea that good people can be condemned forever while some
people who aren't nearly so good (I'm not lumping all Christians in
that category, because most of you seem to be decent people) can go to
heaven forever really rubs me the wrong way, for some reason.  And,
for the record it was Timothy, not I,who brought up infant baptism.  I
was refering to the group of people, for all I know the majority of
Earth's population throughout history, who never even heard the name
"jesus" in their mortal lives or, if they did hear the name, never had
a clue what the Bible claims his message was.  I can respect the idea,
held by some Christians, obviously more troubled by this than me since
it is part of their own belief system, that those who never knew
Jesus' message in mortality, through circumstances outside their
control, will have the chance to accept him post mortum.  Call it
antiBiblical if you like, many Christians who know the Bible like the
back of their hands will probably disagree with you, but if the Bible
message is that anybody who didn't accept Christ in mortal life, even
those who never even had the chance because they lived long and happy
lives in China or the Inca Empire or something, is damned
forever...then I passionately, respectfully but unabashedly an
unashamedly disagree with the Bible.
  Well, folks, that is all.  I find myself incredibly tired and
mentally drained, but I appreciate your patience and forbearance.  I
acknowledge that my views put me in the minority on this list, and
that's definitely putting it mildly.  I'd like to think that airing
out my views here, instead of on some Atheist or Antitheist listserve,
is a mark in favor of my sincerity and desire to genuinely find the
truth.  After all, if I'm honestly wrong, the people who share my
false notions aren't very likely to prove it to me.  To that end, I
post my opinions here not to insult, or to start a fight, but to be
sincerely questioned and challenged.  If I'm in error, I invite any of
you to logically and rationally point out my mistakes.  I've talked to
many Christians who are much smarter than me and they haven't been
able to do it, I've thoroughly studied most of the Bible, especially
the Gospels, and that's just left me with more questions than
answers...but maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to anyone who
can honestly and irrefutably prove me wrong, though I'm skeptical of
it happening.
  Anyways, warmest regards and best wishes to you all.  I am mindful
of those of us going through hard times and dealing with incredibly
powerful adversity; you are definitely in my thoughts.
  Fondly and cordially,
Kirt

On 5/10/13, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Hi Curt,
>
> I don't have all the answers, and the Bible doesn't tell us
> absolutely everything. What I have said in my posts is not my
> opinion, but it's what the Bible clearly says, which I
> whole-heartedly believe. And, I don't believe that I said little
> children would go to hell if they didn't heed God's call before they
> die. There is an age when they can and do understand, some as early
> as 4 years old. God is sovereign, and it's all up to Him.
>
> As to you personally, yes, at this point, you will spend eternity in
> hell. Please don't be flippant about having lots of company with the
> people you know. You'll all be in constant torment, from which there
> will be no relief. You shouldn't take that lightly; it's not a joking
> matter. And, don't base your opinions on the Old Testament only. Just
> because there was much immorality in those days, that doesn't mean
> that God condoned it. He didn't then, and He doesn't now. Read the
> New Testament as well, and forget your preconceived false notions.
> The Bible is not full of double standards, contradictions or
> inconsistencies. Sometimes it's a matter of translation. The English
> language does not always have words to properly say what the original
> Hebrew or Greek does. Read it with an open mind and a willingness to
> learn from it and accept its teachings. Accept the whole Bible, not
> just the parts that you agree with. Ask God in prayer to show Himself
> to you through His word, if you really want to know. God knows
> whether you are truly seeking or just looking for things to criticize
> and be disgruntled about.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> At 11:56 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>Linda,
>>   What of those billions upon billions who never heard the name
>>"jesus" in their lives?  Does God condemn them for those circumstances
>>which, if you believe, you would have to concede he is responsible
>>for?  That hardly seems infinitely just, much less infinitely
>>merciful, to me.
>>   And what of people like me who, seeing numerous contradictions and
>>inconsistancies in the Bible, not to mention the double standard of
>>morality which seems to make itself known after even a cursory reading
>>of the Old Testament, decide we can't honestly and in good faith
>>believe such a book?  Are we condemned to the fire forever, with no
>>chance of an end to our punishment (even after billions and billions
>>of years), while professing Christians, some of them more sinful than
>>us, are sanctified and justified for salvation?  I suppose, by your
>>definition, there is absolutely no hope for me unless I sincerely
>>devote myself to a faith which, and I'm only speaking for myself here
>>and meaning as little offense as possible, seems irrational and not
>>the most effective path to me being an ethical and moral person.
>>   I guess I can take at least a modicum of solace because, if you're
>>right, I'll at least have some good company in my eternal damnation.
>>If I'm going to be burning in agony forever, at least I'll be able to
>>share my torture with the likes of Gandhi, the Buddha, Albert
>>Einstein, Socrates, Thomas Jefferson (before you say he was a
>>Christian, read the Jefferson Bible and I imagine it will change your
>>mind), Confucious and many more of humanity's best and brightest, both
>>morally and intelectually.  That's at least some comfort, isn't it?
>>   In closing, I'd just like to reiterate my desire for civil and
>>reasonable dialogue.  I'll confess this last message was passionate
>>because, I won't lie, this conversation strikes a nerve near and dear
>>to my heart.  If you object to the tone I took in this e-mail, I'd
>>politely ask you to read this whole conversation before accusing me of
>>such; I'd submit that, though I have tried to make my case with
>>passion and furvor, I have not been any more intense than Timothy or
>>Linda in stating my opinion.  I stand by what I said, but I don't mean
>>any insult or offense.
>>   Warmest regards,
>>Kirt
>>
>>On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>> > that's true but,  as a child someone might believe that and they may
>> > have
>> > professed faith in jesus christ but as an adult things are often
>> > different.
>> > you do things you shouldn't do. what about people like that? will god
>> > save
>> > them? when we sin in our prayers we should say lord i know i've sinned
>> > please forgive me of the sins i've committed today and will commit in
>> > the
>> > future. it's not something you have to do but wouldn't you rather know
>> > that
>> > you've forgiven asked for forgiveness every night and that your slate
>> > is
>> > clean.
>> > god bless
>> >  Timothy
>> >  Your friend in the music industry
>> >  bandcamp
>> >  http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>> >  twitter
>> >  @timothyclark13
>> >  Skype
>> >  djtimothy1
>> >  facebooks
>> >  http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>> >  http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>> >  reverbnation
>> >  http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>> >  youtube
>> >  http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>> >  phone
>> >  7244011224
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On May 8, 2013, at 11:49 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>> >
>> >> Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them. No one will be
>> >> able
>> >> to snatch them out of My hand. The Bible doesn't say that if we sin,
>> >> we
>> >> will not be saved. The Bible doesn't say that if we backslide, we will
>> >> not
>> >> be saved. We will all be judged, and all God's children will spend
>> >> eternity with Him in heaven. Those who are not God's children, who are
>> >> counting on their good works and their outstanding lives, and who
>> >> think
>> >> there is more than one path to heaven, will spend eternity in hell,
>> >> where
>> >> they will burn forever! Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
>> >> Anything added to what Christ has done cheapens His death and
>> >> resurrection.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 10:38 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>> >>> i'll agree with you as to the fact that if you're actually a
>> >>> christian
>> >>> that you regularly wouldn't do those things but in this time and in
>> >>> these
>> >>> last days where we find ourselves people profess faith and turn
>> >>> around
>> >>> and do those things so, do you think people like that will still be
>> >>> saved.
>> >>> i for one don't think they will be. thoughts anyone?
>> >>> god bless
>> >>> Timothy
>> >>> Your friend in the music industry
>> >>> bandcamp
>> >>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>> >>> twitter
>> >>> @timothyclark13
>> >>> Skype
>> >>> djtimothy1
>> >>> facebooks
>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>> >>> reverbnation
>> >>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>> >>> youtube
>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>> >>> phone
>> >>> 7244011224
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Genuine Christians will not do those things. God may hide His face
>> >>> > from
>> >>> > us for awhile, but He will never take away anything He has given us
>> >>> > as
>> >>> > blessings unless He has something better.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > At 10:29 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>> >>> >> the question laid out before us tonight is this. once saved, are
>> >>> >> you
>> >>> >> always saved.
>> >>> >> if you accept god into your life and you serve the lord faithfully
>> >>> >> then i would have to say that you would be rewarded in life
>> >>> >> eternal.
>> >>> >> but, if you are saved as a child and you murder or rape someone or
>> >>> >> do
>> >>> >> something sinister will you still be saved?
>> >>> >> i personally don't think so.
>> >>> >> god can gain favor with you but god can also take his blessings
>> >>> >> away.
>> >>> >> i think if you dishonor god and you don't repent you'll be judged
>> >>> >> accordingly.
>> >>> >> i'm just wandering, what are your thoughts on this subject?
>> >>> >> i for one think you can lose the favor and the blessings of god.
>> >>> >> god bless
>> >>> >> Timothy
>> >>> >> Your friend in the music industry
>> >>> >> bandcamp
>> >>> >> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>> >>> >> twitter
>> >>> >> @timothyclark13
>> >>> >> Skype
>> >>> >> djtimothy1
>> >>> >> facebooks
>> >>> >> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>> >>> >> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>> >>> >> reverbnation
>> >>> >> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>> >>> >> youtube
>> >>> >> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>> >>> >> phone
>> >>> >> 7244011224
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>> >> for
>> >>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>> > for
>> >>> > Faith-talk:
>> >>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>