[Faith-talk] Original sin and salvation in Christianity and Islam.

Mon Nov 25 16:42:44 UTC 2013

One thing that can be benefitial  about issues like this is that they can 
cause people to really assess their faith and chalenge them to go deeper and 
actually start to excersize their mental faculties in such a way that they 
increase their faith and become stronger and more grounded Christians who 
have a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe that the journey of 
this Christian walk is boundless and completely full of amazing promises and 
truths that are not only logical, but Spiritual and this in itself is an 
amazing wonder that surpasses the starol lifeless reasoning of worldly 
philosophies.
In His loving grip
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doris and Chris" <chipmunks at gmx.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Original sin and salvation in Christianity and 
Islam.


> Hi, Mustafa
>
> I hope you might take the time to respond. I am genuinely intersted in 
> this discussion. You may have noticed that I do not automatically agree 
> with anything Christian just because I have been tought to believe a 
> certain way.
>
> Here is hoping for an intesting discussion!
>
> doris in germany
>
>
>
>
> At 09:21 AM 11/24/2013 -0900, you wrote:
>>Hello Mustafa, you forget this one other important atrabute of God, he is 
>>Just. You study this atrabute of God and then fit it into this argument 
>>pleas, then take some time to give a more balanced and informed response 
>>or you simply muddy up the waters of your own argument. Also, he didn't 
>>just die for some inherited sin, he died for actual sin that people have 
>>committed, consciously, willfully, "All have sinned and come short of 
>>God's Glory" and "No one is righteous, no not one," So it goes much deeper 
>>than you may understand looking from the outside in. Once a person feels 
>>the weight of their own sin, how heavy it is, how shameful it really 
>>feels, then a person can start to understand how pier the love that caused 
>>him to come down to this earth, leave his glory in heaven, and be 
>>tortured, nailed to a tree to remove the curse of death, the black stain 
>>of sin and take it up and bare it in all of its humiliation, pain, 
>>betrayal and suffering then you start to get a glimpse of the Christians 
>>hope in this great work of salvation.  I imagine you won't reply, but I am 
>>still giving you the benefit of the doubt. Romans 11:    33Oh, the depth 
>>of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!        How unsearchable 
>>his judgments,        and his paths beyond tracing out!     34"Who has 
>>known the mind of the Lord?        Or who has been his counselor? 
>>35"Who has ever given to God,        that God should repay him?"     36For 
>>from him and through him and to him are all things.        To him be the 
>>glory forever! Amen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mostafa" 
>><mostafa.almahdy at gmail.com> To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;> Sent: Saturday, 
>>November 23, 2013 8:34 PM Subject: [Faith-talk] Original sin and salvation 
>>in Christianity and Islam. >                        Dear all, upon you be 
>>peace and blessings. > > On today's post, I would like to explain and 
>>illustrate the  concept of > original sin and salvation, in both 
>>Christianity and Islam. > > First; Original sin in Christianity. > > To 
>>simplify the concept, it is the sin of Adam and Eve and their eating > 
>>from the forbidden tree. > > This disobedience is considered as the 
>>original sin in Christianity. > > What do they believe? > > > 1; They 
>>believe it was the first ever committed sin. > > 2; It is consecutively 
>>inherited. > > 3; As a consequence to that, Jesus died on the cross to 
>>save the humanity > from its initially sinful nature. Or as Christian 
>>Apologists say to their > audience; He died for your sins. > > So, if I 
>>properly comprehend the concept, God has sent his son to die for > our 
>>sins. Is that correct? > > Well, if it's so, then God is actually in 
>>trouble. > He can't atone the human inherited cynicism, unless he sheds 
>>the blood on > the cross. > > Isn't that what he did according to 
>>Christian doctrinal tennets to atone > our inherited cynicism? > > Well, 
>>he is unfair then. > > And furthermore, he is not all capable. > > That 
>>plainly contradicts with God ultimate Omnipotence and Transcendence. > > 
>>Yes, it does. > > His atonement is conditional. > > Yes, because he 
>>demanded someone to pay the debt on our behalf. > > Jesus according to 
>>Christians paid the debt of the inherited sinful nature > of humanity and 
>>thus, he deserved worship. According to Christianity, > > He owes us a 
>>debt, so Christians worship him as a payback. > > Now the question is, why 
>>God demanded to do so? > > Meaning, if God is all Omnipotent and 
>>Transcendent, and we believe He is, > but in Christianity, the concept is 
>>disputable. But anyhow, if God is all > Omnipotent and Transcendent, he 
>>would've not demanded to appoint someone > to pay the debt. Am I correct? 
>>According to Christianity, God was in need > for Jesus to pay the debt of 
>>death, so he died on our behalf. > > The point I'm attempting to convey 
>>folks, that God is all Omnipotent and > Transcendent, and thus, he 
>>could've atoned us unconditionally. > > Why he didn't do that? > > Do you 
>>believe that God is able to create a human embryo in a female's > womb 
>>without a male? > > If you say no, you're then doubting God's ultimate 
>>Omnipotence, and that's > a big trouble. > > If you say yes, then it's 
>>over sir. > > The whole argument dissolves. > > That's what we believe in 
>>regarding the miraculous birth of Jesus Christ. > > He was born 
>>miraculously. > > We believe in him as the proceeded spirit from God. > > 
>>But, that doesn't mean we should worship him. > > If we should worship 
>>Jesus for that reason, then we should worship Adam > for that matter as 
>>well. > > Adam was created without any physical relation. > > He didn't 
>>live in the womb for awhile, unlike the situation of Jesus. > > God 
>>created him from the mud, and then, he said unto him, be, and he was. > > 
>>He was started from scratch, as they say in English. > >     Christians 
>>are preaching the worship of Jesus, whilst Jesus himself > never 
>>explicitly commanded someone to worship him. > > I always ask my Christian 
>>friends, where is the proof in the scripture? > > Well, they quote me some 
>>verses but, these verses are implicitly > interpreted, and they could 
>>variously be apprehended. > > Christianity lacks of the vital commitment 
>>which constitutes  parental > fundamentals of monotheism. > The problem 
>>would probably be, that Christians don't mind representing God > in 
>>physical portrayals, God incarnate as they say. > God in Islam has no 
>>physical incarnation with any of His creation. > > If God incarnates, that 
>>means he is physical, and the physical state of > god demands him to be 
>>imperfect. > > God in Christianity is a personified being. > > He lacks 
>>the state of ultimate Transcendence. > > God in Christianity is in a state 
>>of enormous imperfection. > > Christianity is a dandy religion by 
>>definition. > > It induces a fabulous appearance. > > But, it contains 
>>numerous inconsistencies. > >  If you thoroughly study the major concepts 
>>of Christianity, you will > conveniently recognize that it is filled with 
>>numerous  doctrinal defects. > > > >  It is filled with theological 
>>defects as much as you can count. > > I know that may disappoint my 
>>Christian friends but, it's imperative to > speak the truth. > > I suppose 
>>I'm the one to blame for being rational. > > But I am afraid, I can't 
>>believe in blindly. > > I can't develop my faith beyond inference. I know 
>>better. > > I may not be perfect. I may not have everything. But I'm still 
>>thankful to > God for everything he has given me. > > God has given me a 
>>mind to think with. Christians and I agree on this. > > If God wanted us 
>>to blindly believe, he would've just made us slugs. > > Islam encourages 
>>us to think, to rationally assess the concepts, so it's > to convincingly 
>>determine what's true and what's false. > > Islam addresses the spiritual, 
>>the physical along with the mental factors > of the human being. > > Islam 
>>has a substantial commonality with the logical sense. > > Islam guide, 
>>what do Muslims believe about Jesus? > > 
>>http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10.htm > May God guide us all to what 
>>pleases Him, Amen. > Upon you be peace and blessings. > 
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