[Faith-talk] An article I found

Tue Aug 12 17:14:51 UTC 2014

Very true; The Koran and the Bible both have contradiction.  That does not
mean that it is useless; used spiritually, both books are very useful, but
they still both have contradictions, and this word for word stuff people
keep pushing makes no sense.  Once you begin translating anything into
another language, you are going to have problems in many cases.  In the case
of the bible, it was copied and recopied from about f00 until about 1500 or
until about the time the King James version came out.  Some scholars
corrected each other, and even changed things which were correct to stuff
which was incorrect.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon
A. Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:08 PM
To: RJ Sandefur; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] An article I found

That wasn’t the point of your article. The point seemed to be, if the book
has contradictions, then the religion which believes in that book is
invalid.

No we don’t have original manuscripts of the Bible either. Yes very old
versions, but what does that matter? Just because a book is old does not
mean it is true. You have no more evidence than the Muslims.

---
Peace,
Brandon

Awaken To Silence: Awaken To The Silence That Has Always Been Within You

Facebook: AwakenToSilence
Twitter: @awakentosilence
Tumblr: awakentosilence.tumblr.com

On Aug 12, 2014, at 1:07 PM, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Brandon, Christianity would not be invallidated because we have 
> evidence which goes back two thousand years. The problem with Islam, 
> is their are no origenal text from the time period when Islam's 
> founder walked the earth. Dr. RJ Sandefur
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brandon A. Olivares
> To: RJ Sandefur ; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] An article I found
> 
> This strikes me as the pot calling the kettle black. So if your point is
that Islam is invalidated because the Quran has contradictions, then
Christianity is invalidated right along with it. Which I agree with of
course, but I doubt that’s what you wanted to do.
> 
> ---
> Peace,
> Brandon
> 
> Awaken To Silence: Awaken To The Silence That Has Always Been Within 
> You
> 
> Facebook: AwakenToSilence
> Twitter: @awakentosilence
> Tumblr: awakentosilence.tumblr.com
> 
> On Aug 12, 2014, at 12:49 PM, RJ Sandefur via Faith-talk
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> Dear List, First, Let me say that I do not have a problem with muslams.
However, Mostpha has been posting things on this list, where he claims that
the Christian bible has contridictions in it. I've found an interest article
when a Christian appolologist has asked some questions concerning the Quran.
You can find this article at:
>> www.carm.org
>> Then go to the link titled Islam. However, I'm pasting the article below,
and I ask you read it with an open mind.
>> Contradictions in the Qur'an
>> by Matt Slick
>> The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in
heaven (Surah 85:21-22).  If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then
there shouldn't be any contradictions in it.  Of course, the Muslims will
deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do.  Some of the
contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly
contradictions.
>> A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the
possibility of another.  The first one here is a good example.  In Surah
19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing.  In 15:26, man is
created from clay.  Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since
"nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay."  Both cannot be true.
>> All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf
Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.
>> 1. What was man created from:  blood, clay, dust, or nothing? 
>> 1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2). 
>> 2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into      shape,
(15:26). 
>> 3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created
him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59). 
>> 4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of
nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35). 
>> 5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man)
becomes an open disputer! (16:4). 
>> 2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the
Qur'an?  
>> 1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from
Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all
things," (2:256). 
>> 2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people
(assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,--that Allah and His
Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent,
it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate
Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3). 
>> 3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the
Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in
wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish
regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them:
for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5). 
>> 4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the
Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued," (9:29). 
>> 3. The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob?  Moses? 
>> 1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to
Allah in Islam," (39:12). 
>> 2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed
him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee."
Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the
mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord
manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down
in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee
I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143). 
>> 3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did
Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except
in the Faith of Islam," (2:132). 
>> 4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?  
>> 1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but 
>> He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with
Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).  Also 4:116 2. The
people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven:
Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show
us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder
and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come
to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of
authority," (4:153).
>> 5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not? 
>> 1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy
they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them:
there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast
thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34). 
>> 2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in
justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and
knoweth all, (6:115). 
>> 3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but
We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath
power over all things?" (2:106). 
>> 4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best
what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of
them understand not," (16:101). 
>> 6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?  
>> 1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts
followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the
flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children
of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was
said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!-
and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the
body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily,
many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92). 
>> 2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down
by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence:
and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"  So
he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him
and all who were with him," (17:102-103). 
>> 7. Is wine consumption good or bad?  
>> 1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,--of Satan's handwork: eschew
such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90). 
>> 2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in
it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste
never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey
pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from
their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for
ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up
their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15). 
>> 3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will
they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the
beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine
sealed," (83:22-25). 
>> This article is also available in:Español 
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