[Faith-talk] a distressing book

qubit lauraeaves at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 31 08:45:46 UTC 2014 

Hi Greg --
Obviously you are answering several persons from this thread, my post being 
the last, but I'll reply anyway.

First, elephants:
I wasn't necessarily arguing for pluralism when I used the elephant analogy, 
although you could look at it that way.  I never said the elephant 
represented God or life.
The elephant in my analogy simply refered to the truth about anything 
specific, not necessarily God or religion etc.  One example in physics is 
the phenomenon of light.  Originally scientists thought it was made up of 
waves, but then found that it also exhibited behaviors of particles.
So which is true? Both , until some other discovery changes the way it is 
viewed and used.

As for pluralism being a better approach to finding truth, obviously not 
every religion is true, or 100% true, and there are all kinds of paths to 
take that can be destructive.  But dismissing something that you feel has 
truth in it (you know, "virtuous,lovely,of good report or praiseworthy"), 
Christians should be seeking after these things...  But  I think you are 
arguing both ends against the middle when you dismiss tolerance and open 
mindedness. As long as you don't open your mind so far that it fills with 
garbage...

Your assertion that seeking truth is best done in community I agree with to 
a point.  But in the case of spiritual or religious matters, there is the 
quote in
2 Peter 1:20,21:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private 
interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of 
God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



Of course, everyone uses those verses to promote their own church doctrines.
But everyone who has received the HG can received inspiration in their 
hearts to know if something is right.

Ok, I'll quit rambling.
I enjoy academic discussions but don't think a committee can dictate what 
God says, unless inspired by God, and I don't think some things are knowable 
by limited logic.

Happy New Year all.
--le



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com>
To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith 
and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Timothy Clark Ministries" <timothyclarkministries at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a distressing book


The problem with the elephant/blind men analogy is that so often I see it 
presented as a more “enlightened” or tolerant perspective that allows for 
multiple and equally valid paths to god or the divine or whatever one 
chooses to call it. In reality, the pluralistic approach toward religion 
embodied in this analogy is just as arrogant, patronizing, and exclusive as 
the truth claims made by followers of any religion. To make the claim that 
all approaches toward faith are just facets of one greater truth, makes the 
assumption that somehow, someone is able to rise above everyone else and get 
the full perspective, “see” the complete elephant, etc. The person who holds 
this view is claiming to have access to information that those who follow 
any one path do not have. This is no different than Christians making 
exclusive faith claims based upon the Bible and the teachings of the Church 
or Muslims making truth claims based on the Qoran and the teachings of 
Muhammad. Either all paths are valid, or not all paths are valid. Whichever 
side you fall on, you are equally exclusive.

The idea that pluralism somehow offers an inherently more moderate or more 
tolerant path than sincere believers of any other path simply isn’t true.

As to the original topic of this thread, exploring your faith and knowing 
what you believe can be a very healthy process. I would not take anything 
you read at face value but critically consider what you read, the source, 
the biases that the writers may have, etc. When you read something like you 
mentioned, such as that Catholicism has its roots in pagan religion, analyze 
the arguments made by the author. Do they support that claim with evidence? 
Does the conclusion the author reaches make sense based on the evidence they 
cite? Have you encountered other perspectives that support or oppose this 
claim? What do your experiences tel you about this claim?  I think this kind 
of exploration is done best in community. What do people you trust and 
respect have to say on the topic?

I’ve never read or heard of this book and so can’t offer any better advice 
than reading critically.

Best,
Greg

> On Dec 30, 2014, at 3:57 AM, qubit via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> 
> wrote:
>
> Hi all --
> This is an interesting thread. I haven't been keeping up on my email every
> day. I have some thoughts that I haven't seen anyone else make.
>
> Has anyone else considered that truth is many faceted and infinite and 
> what
> you think is "true" just depends on your situation and personal 
> perspective?
> Of course people make mistakes in judgement, but there is an analogy that
> I'm sure everyone has heard about the 5 blind men and the elephent, and 
> each
> is trying to determine what an elephant is like.  One grabs the trunk and
> says it's like a snake; one grabs an ear and says it's like a fan; one 
> grabs
> a leg and thinks it's like a tree trunk, one leans against its side and
> thinks it's a wall, and of course there is the guy in back who grabs the
> tail and says it's like a rope.
> They are all somewhat right, but also don't comprehend the whole creature.
>
> While I do believe the bible is true, I don't think all people who read it
> are equally right.  I also think the Bible is not complete -- flame away 
> if
> you want, but look at the dead sea scrolls and such.  Certainly any
> information beyond what is in the bible would be fascinating.  I also 
> think
> there are non christians who have the "light of Christ" or holy spirit in
> them without knowing it, and behave like christians should.
>
> But that's not news.  I don't necessarily believe in the possibility of a
> unitarian or single true church that combines all the existing churches,
> unless Jesus himself appears himself to the whole world and can resolve 
> all
> the disputes over doctrines.
> Meanwhile,  there is that story in the gospels about the disciples 
> rebuking
> someone for trying to cast a devil out of someone in the name of Jesus, 
> but
> he wasn't one of them, and Jesus rebuked the disciples  for this, because
> all who were with him whether one of the disciples or not, were for him.
> Tolerance.
>
> Has anyone also read about some of the non Christian religions in the 
> world
> such as eastern religions etc? They argue a little with Christians over
> doctrines, but they also have some beliefs and practices that can be
> helpful, and even agree in many ways with christianity. I also look back 
> at
> history and believe that many of the doctrinal and philosophical clashes
> between groups of people develop as a result of hyppocrasy on the part of
> believing people.
> I wonder how race relations in america would have been different if some 
> of
> the so called christians who claimed that slavery was right because of
> misuse of some verses in the bible, and that the african people needed to 
> be
> christianized.
> I know, that was done mcenturies ago, but the aftermath still goes on.
> Well, at least Martin Luther King Jr was a great Christian.
> And the lds are often called nonchristian because of doctrinal beliefs and
> strange history, but they are very much christian.
> Well i'm rambling. If anyone wants to discuss anything specific or share
> verses and such about what the bible says about certain things, I'm a 
> reader
> and love to chat. If this isn't of interest here, I'll spare you any long
> rambling.
>
> I hope you all have a blessed and happy new year.
> --le
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Timothy Clark Ministries via Faith-talk" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> To: "Brandon A. Olivares" <programmer2188 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a distressing book
>
>
> i respect that argument however, i strongly disagree with it.
> Timothy Clark Ministries
>
>
>
>  http://www.timothyclarkministries.blogspot.com
>
> On Tevet 8, 5775 AM, at 1:40, Brandon A. Olivares 
> <programmer2188 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think there’s one truth, that all must find. I don’t think it’s
>> equivalent to the Bible, but that’s each person’s journey to find out.
>>
>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 1:35 AM, Timothy Clark Ministries
>>> <timothyclarkministries at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Brandon, i agree with you but what would you have truth take the form 
>>> of?
>>> would you agree with gnostics who believe truth is whatever we make it,
>>> in other words you find your own “personal truth.”
>>> these claims are ridiculously absurd and further more totally out of
>>> proportion to the truth. the truth isn’t what you make it. the truth is
>>> the thing that’s staring you all in the face. read the bible. god’s 
>>> word.
>>> .
>>> Timothy Clark Ministries
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.timothyclarkministries.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> On Tevet 8, 5775 AM, at 1:32, Brandon A. Olivares
>>> <programmer2188 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Devin,
>>>>
>>>> I think it’s important to question. If there is a God, then he doesn’t
>>>> want children who blindly believe without finding out the truth for
>>>> themselves. Search, and be open to whatever form the truth takes.
>>>>
>>>> But just know that every author you read is biased in some way. You can’t
>>>> just read a few books and think that is the end-all be-all. You have to
>>>> figure it out for yourself. I started the journey when I was 10 years
>>>> old, and I don’t think it really ever ends.
>>>>
>>>> Brandon
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 1:15 AM, Devin Prater via Faith-talk
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you so much.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 12:08 AM, Timothy Clark Ministries
>>>>>> <timothyclarkministries at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dismiss it.
>>>>>> i say this for one reason.
>>>>>> you’ll confuse yourself. you’ll give yourself more questions and you’ll
>>>>>> go mad searching for answers. eventually though, if you are 
>>>>>> persistent
>>>>>> enough, you’ll get there. question is, at what cost to your mental
>>>>>> faculties.
>>>>>> i’ve been there, done that. because i’ve done it i can argue against
>>>>>> just about everything but, for most this is not a good path to try to
>>>>>> follow. it takes discipline and patients and a lot of both. if you
>>>>>> continue, be ready for lodes and lodes of sleepless nights.
>>>>>> i say give it up if you don’t want to go through it. like i said, i’ve
>>>>>> been there, i’ve done that..
>>>>>> Timothy Clark Ministries
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.timothyclarkministries.blogspot.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tevet 8, 5775 AM, at 1:00, Devin Prater via Faith-talk
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all. For years I've saught the truth. For years I've looked and
>>>>>>> looked to find God, and just when I think I've found him, I'm not
>>>>>>> sure. First there was Gnosticism that challenged me the most. I
>>>>>>> studdied it, and even downloaded a few of the gospels, like of
>>>>>>> Thomas. Now don't get me wrong. I don't just flit from view to view
>>>>>>> on religion so easily. I soon emerged from that with the firm
>>>>>>> conviction that it was just not true, for Jesus wouldn't want just a
>>>>>>> little few to become children of God, and while the world is fallen,
>>>>>>> our main wish shouldn't be to get out of it and not live on our way
>>>>>>> through it. But there's a book called Satan's counterfeit
>>>>>>> Christianity that I found on iBooks. I started reading it thinking
>>>>>>> it'd give more about other ideas I should keep away from, but it
>>>>>>> basically reads that all knowledge me have of Christianity is wrong.
>>>>>>> It says that Catholicism is rooted in other religions, based on 
>>>>>>> Babel
>>>>>>> or however you spell it, and that Protestantism is just an extention
>>>>>>> of Catholicism, just split and without the rituals and such. So, now
>>>>>>> what? But the book's only advice about learning the "true faith" is
>>>>>>> to read the Bible deeply. Well, I've been doing that for as long as 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> had a Bible to read, and the only thing I disagree with of most
>>>>>>> Christians is that the sons of God in Gen 6 were fallen angels, not
>>>>>>> sons of Seth. So, is this something I should keep investigating, or
>>>>>>> should I just dismiss it before I cause myself more confusion and
>>>>>>> ache as happened with Gnosticism?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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