[Faith-talk] Following up the responses to my post about theTrinity, and a Skype invitation to be engaged on a live discussion.

[Poppa Bear]

Hello brother Mustafa. I appreciate your critical and analytical look at 
this as well as your response. Here is a short coming with attempting to 
place every aspect of Spiritual or metaphysical truths into logistical 
arguments. At some level almost every assertion will fail. If we said the 
profit Muhammad manufactured the account of the Koran being given to him and 
Josef Smith, the founder of the Mormons also manufactured the account of the 
angels bringing him the book of Mormons, what logical argument can 
absolutely prove one way or another if the accounts are true or lies? They 
are taken by faith and IMO have less validity than the theoretical 
components that we rely on to try and understand the Doctrine of the 
Trinity. What is logical about God placing the seed of Jesus in Marries 
womb, even the account of Adam and Eve isn't provable; it is totally 
illogical, Jesus turning water into whine, or calming a raging storm on the 
Sea of Galilee, not to mention the feeding of the 5000 with the fish and 
loaves of bread. I could go on and on, but I imagine you already have a view 
on my line of reasoning that satisfies you and may not relate any of the 
comparisons I am making to the trinity valid.

When any Spiritual truth about God, creation and eternity are put forth, the 
only logic that can be used will more than likely have to be theoretical. If 
I am wrong, don't hesitate to let me no. If any religious belief system was 
logical it would be a science and not a faith or religion and there would 
only be one logical scientifically proven religion to follow, but every 
belief system is founded in truths or lies that have to be taken on 90% 
faith. Here is one last thing that I want to mention, a truth doesn't have 
to be proven to be a truth. Some truths are evidential facts and some truths 
are apriori truths that are self evident and simply stand alone even when we 
can't make since out of them. Jesus was still a Prophet even when he couldn't 
prove it to the Pharisees or religious leaders, David was still going to be 
the king of Israel in spite of the logical circumstances, even when he was 
being chased through the hills and wilderness for 12 years he was still 
going to be king simply because God said it would be so, so not only is 
truth self evident, but it can be a truth because God speaks truth into 
reality.  Now what is logical about any of that?

Well, you take care and continue in your great pursuit of truth.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mostafa" <mostafa.almahdy at gmail.com>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:49 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Following up the responses to my post about 
theTrinity, and a Skype invitation to be engaged on a live discussion.


>
>
> Dear all, peace be with you.
>
> I hope you  are doing well.
>
> This is a continuity to the responses regarding my previous post about the 
> Trinity.
>
> I read all of them.
>
> I unfeignedly  honour Christians when they attempt to defend their 
> doctrine, and of course, they reserve the total right to do so.
>
> But trust me, it introduced nothing new to me.
>
> I am already aware of the contention that strives to vindicate the 
> Trinitarian adherence.
>
> I would like to apologize if my post was abrasive.
>
> Christians claimed that I did not comprehend the Trinity.
>
> Well that is terrifically inaccurate.
>
> At the beginning of my former post, I concisely outlined the Trinity.
>
> It is the belief that God is equally represented in the three characters 
> of the godhead.
>
> It is the triune being of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit unified 
> together.
>
> That is the Trinity.
>
> Here is the definition of the Trinity precisely quoted from the Catholic 
> encyclopedia.
>
> "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the 
> Christian religion, the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are 
> Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three 
> Persons being truly distinct one from another.
>
> Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed; the Father is God, the Son is 
> God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one 
> God."
>
> This is the definition of the Trinity directly taken from the Catholic 
> encyclopedia.
>
> You can check it out.
>
> Just type on Google; the definition of the Trinity in the Catholic 
> encyclopedia.
>
> For us as Muslims, God is eternal and immutable.
>
> Nothing is comparable to him, whilst the Trinity has constantly been 
> likened to physical objects.
>
> The Trinity is similar to the man, consists of the mind, body and soul.
>
> Well thank you for that clarification.
>
> But I want to draw your attention to something.
>
> I am afraid but, your equivalence has a plain shortage.
>
> The Trinity is God as equally represented in three distinct characters, 
> the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
>
> These according to the definition of the Catholic encyclopedia are three 
> persons.
>
> I am afraid but your example of the mind, body and soul is not 
> sufficiently delineated.
>
> Well how so?
>
> Just pay attention to what comes below.
>
> You said that the Trinity consists of  the father, the son, and the holy 
> spirit, it is compared to the mind, body, and soul.
>
> Is that correct?
>
> Well, I am afraid sir, but your logic is definitely missing your point.
>
> How so?
>
> What are the father, the son, and the holy spirit?
>
> That is excellent, three persons.
>
> And what are the mind, body and soul?
>
> Well indeed, they are three different factors for a one single being.
>
> Whilst the father, the son, and the holy spirit are three different 
> beings.
>
> So how come you compare the three different factors that are made to 
> constitute a one single being with three different beings.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
>     This is a logical faultline which Christians ought to think of.
>
> I am afraid but your example has predominantly missed the two basic 
> premisses and thus, your conclusion is utterly undetermined.
>
>  In order to derive a thorough conclusion, you initially ought to 
> establish the two basic premisses correctly.
>
> Subsequently, I critically encourage the Christian to reconsider the 
> consistency of his argument.
>
> I can show you an alternative instance to analogize for the Trinity.
>
> You need to think of three persons and how you can make them fit in a one 
> single being.
>
> Show me with the genuinely established logical order how you can make 
> three different individuals fit in a one single entity.
>
> The Trinity says three persons and thus, you need to think of an identical 
> instance to compare.
>
> Three persons cannot go with three factors, that is illogical.
>
> You cannot prove your case without founding the rectified premisses which 
> are made to establish the correct logic.
>
> You can have an opinion but that opinion has to be essentially based on 
> rational arguments.
>
> Theoretically, you can say whatever you want to say.
>
> But rationally, you ought to follow the sequential arrangement of the 
> logical statement.
>
> So for instance, all cattles are eating grass.
>
> Cows are cattles.
>
> So cows are eating grass.
>
>  The first assertion represents the primary premiss.
>
> The second assertion represents the secondary premiss.
>
> And ultimately, you derive the rational conclusion.
>
> This is how logic works sir.
> Finally, I invite all of you to participate in a live discussion regarding 
> the Trinity.
>
> I warmly welcome all of you to join.
>
> The live discussion will make everything much clearer.
>
> I will not respond to any rebuttals here.
>
> The place to proceed that discussion is on Skype.
>
> If you are interested to participate, please write me with a list of 
> suitable times, so we can schedule a mutual appointment to meet.
>
>  It would be my distinctive fete to meet all of you.
>
> As I just declared, the discussion will focus on the Trinity as the main 
> subject.
>
> Saturday is the nearest suitable date for me.
>
> If that suits any of you, please let me know, so we can schedule the 
> proper time to meet next Saturday.
>
> I am the one who is opposed, and I proposed.
>
> Peace be with you.
>
>
>
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