[Faith-talk] Faith-Talk Digest, Vol 122, Issue 16
Ericka
dotwriter1 at gmail.com
Sat Sep 30 02:09:11 UTC 2017
Agree with you Sandra. Lots more sense to focus on than just the LGBTQ. Far more verses in the Bible talk about the disgrace and sins of gluttony, alcoholism, abuse/neglect, lying, cheating, stealing and disrespecting elders. We are writings about these? Why are we making a big deal about adultery when it's one of the 10 Commandments? It happens more than LGBTQ!
Seems like a scapegoat "issue" so that congregations of all kinds don't have to look at the other sins that are very obviously written in the Bible.
Didn't say I condoned or not. Didn't say living together before marriage or premarital sex was correct. Just saying these are the only ones that talked about which isn't The only sins in the Bible. And it doesn't matter whether a Catholic calls it a big sin or a little sin. Sin is sin and that's as others have said. I know more greedy and boastful, arrogant and disrespectful, gluttonous and drunkard people who go out and profess that they are conservative Christians and think nothing of it. Yet they turn on someone who made a mistake and is trying to correct their lives. The 19-year-old who's trying to go to school and raise her baby by herself because her parents tossed her out and her boyfriend left her after she got pregnant deserve I love even though we don't condone what she did. We love that child, we love that young lady and we give her guidance and support so she doesn't make the same mistake again. But we also have to realize that we don't know everything that is for us to know. God gives us what we need to know when we can handle it. This is how I understand and support the LGBTQ. If we look at the Bible literally done nobody would go to doctors because Jesus is the one great healer. We were not taking anabiotic's because that wasn't given to God's people and written about in the Bible. And I know there are people who believe this way. I am certain most people on this list would go to a doctor for medical care. Doctors reveal information to us when we need it. We also have to realize that we don't know everything about the human body yet and that he created these human beings the way He did for a purpose we were not told. I believe he has far more to reveal to us and if we ignore what others in the medical sciences discover about how our body works then we are not listening to what God is talking to us about. "My ways are not your ways says the Lord"
Be very certain that God is speaking through you rather than you speaking your thoughts with God behind them to defend your personal beliefs. If God didn't continue to reveal things to us after the Bible was written third be no point to having a personal relationship with him.
Ericka Short
from my iPhone 6+
> On Sep 29, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Sandra Streeter via Faith-Talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Appreciated the unbiased approach--clear statements of the arguments particular to both the LGBT-favoring community and to conservative Christianity. Very disappointed to hear about the stand of Campolo's wife--I usually love Tony Campolo--still do. The old saying about "God loves us too much to let us stay where we are" easily comes to mind here. While not enamored with where the church is now, I am also not enamored with how conservatives have treated LGBTQ people. We need to speak the truth about LGBT issues, and also about stealing, lying, committing adultery, idolatry and the other problematic behaviors, and that is where I have a bone to pick with my fellow conservatives--we spend way too much time speaking against certain things, as if they were the only sins. It's just sad that even conservatives have been brainwashed into accepting certain ideas. While needing to love all people, I think there are lines over which true love doesn't cross...
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> One can never consent to creep, when one feels an impulse to soar.
> (Helen Keller)
> -----Original Message----- From: faith-talk-request at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 8:00 AM
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Faith-Talk Digest, Vol 122, Issue 16
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. The Emerging Church and Homosexuality (Linda Mentink)
> 2. Re: The Emerging Church and Homosexuality (David Moore)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:35:31 -0500
> From: Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net>
> To: Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [Faith-talk] The Emerging Church and Homosexuality
> Message-ID:
> <20170928143551.2E2141C0E4 at filter03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just received this article today, and thought I'd pass it
> along. This is written was David Cloud.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> THE EMERGING CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SEPTEMBER 27, 2017
>
> The following is excerpted from _WHAT IS THE EMERGING CHURCH?_
> This is an examination of the _emerging church, _a name
> describing a new approach to missions and church life among some
> "evangelicals" which is invading many independent fundamental
> Baptist churches. The author has made a great effort to
> understand the emerging church, having read more than 100 books
> and many articles by emerging church leaders, having visited
> influential emerging congregations as well as attending with
> media credentials a large emerging conference sponsored by
> Zondervan and InterVarsity Press. In reality, the emerging
> church is simply the latest heresy within the broad tent of
> evangelicalism. The Bible does not warn in vain, "Be not
> deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners" (1
> Corinthians 15:33). Chapter titles include the following: What
> Is the Emerging Church? A Great Blending and Merging. The
> Liberal Emerging Church. The "Conservative"
> Emerging Church. The book has an index. Available in print and
> eBook editions, www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143
>
> ____________
>
> Brian McLaren says:
>
> "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about
> homosexuality. ... We aren't sure if or where lines are to be
> drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines
> are drawn. ... Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making
> pronouncements" ("Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question,"
> Jan. 23, 2006,
> blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/01/brian_mclaren
> _o.html).
>
> In December 2006, McLaren spoke at the Open Door Community Church
> in Sherwood, Arkansas. The church's web site says:
>
> "The leadership at Open Door Community Churches are excited to
> see gay and non-gay Christians worshiping together as one. We
> believe that gay and non-gay Christians can and should come to
> the table of the Lord together, side by side, without labels. We
> believe that as these two historically separate communities join
> together at the cross of Jesus Christ a healing and a new
> understanding of oneness in Christ occurs in both groups. We are
> part of a growing revival of grace-filled Christians transcending
> either the terms 'conservative' or 'liberal.' Above all
> things, we are a GRACE CHURCH! We are a family embracing the full
> spectrum of race, age, gender, family status, sexual orientation,
> economic status and denominational background."
>
> In September 2012, McLaren's son Trevor "married" Owen Ryan in
> a civil ceremony led by Brian at Woodend Sanctuary of the Audubon
> Naturalist Society in Chevy Chase, Maryland
> ("Weddings/Celebrations," _New York Times_, Sept. 23, 2012).
>
> Tony Jones, National Coordinator of the Emerging Village, says:
>
> "I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical
> Christianity (as least as much as any of us can!) and that their
> monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and
> state" (Jones, "How I Went from There to Here: Same Sex
> Marriage Blogalogue," Nov. 18, 2008,
> http://blog.beliefnet.com/tonyjones/2008/11/same-sex-marriage-blo
> galogue-h.html).
>
> On January 18, 2009, Jones wrote: "Adele Sakler, whom I've
> known for a few years, has started yet another 'hyphenated'
> group within the emergent network-of-networks. She's calling it
> 'Qeermergent,' and, as you might guess, it's focused on GLBTQ
> issues."
>
> Doug Pagitt says:
>
> "It we have a theology formed in a worldview that sees sexuality
> as sin, our means, intentions, and explanations of sexuality will
> be affected" (_Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches_,
> p. 140).
>
> In an interview Chris Seay said:
>
> "In your community, are you called to the gospel of Christ, or
> are you called to be the moral police? Approach homosexuals
> without condemnation but with God's love and the gospel"
> ("Shayne Wheeler and Chris Seay on Homosexuals and the Church,"
> ChurchRelevance.com, June 19, 2007).
>
> Spencer Burke believes that "the evangelical church may be wrong
> about homosexuality"
> (http://www.zondervan.com/media/samples/pdf/0310253861_samptxt.pd
> f).
>
> Donald McCullough says that "condemning homosexuality feels
> natural because about 95 percent of us could never imagine
> engaging in such a practice" but "in a world turned upside down
> by grace, we must distrust whatever feels natural" (_If Grace Is
> So Amazing, Why Don't We Like It_, pp. 201, 202).
>
> Donald Miller tells of an experience he had as a guest on a
> conservative radio talk show program. He was asked what he
> thought about the homosexuals who are trying to take over the
> country. Instead of expressing concern about the radical
> homosexual agenda, Miller naively claimed that he wasn't aware
> of such a thing and expressed more concern about Christians who
> oppose homosexuals (pp. 187-189). He said that "morality as a
> battle cry against a depraved culture is simply not a New
> Testament idea" (p. 186). He said that if Christians are
> "using war rhetoric to communicate a battle mentality, we are
> fighting on Satan's side" (p. 190).
>
> Tony Campolo believes that homosexuals are usually born that way,
> that it is not a "volitional" problem. Campolo's wife, Peggy,
> supports homosexual marriage. In fact, she is affiliated with
> the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, the mission
> of which is "to create and support a community of churches,
> organizations and individuals committed to the inclusion of gay,
> lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons in the full life and
> mission of Baptist churches." At the New Baptist Covenant
> Celebration (AWAB) in Atlanta in January 2008, which I attended
> with press credentials, I interviewed an AWAB council member
> named Kathy Stayton. She said that she does not believe the
> first three chapters of Genesis are literal history, that
> marriage is a divinely-ordained institution, or that homosexual
> acts, even outside of "committed relationships," are sinful.
>
> At their booth at the new Baptist Covenant Celebration the AWAB
> was distributing an article by Peggy Campolo entitled "Some
> Answers to the Most Common Questions about God's GLBT [gay,
> lesbian, bisexual, transgendered] Children" from the Summer 2000
> edition of _The InSpiriter_. She counsels homosexuals to "ask
> the Holy Spirit to give you a sense of God's timing" about
> "coming out" of the closet! She says, "I can celebrate the
> committed monogamous partnerships of my gay brothers and lesbian
> sisters."
>
> Jim Wallis, founder of _Sojourners_, says in his book _The Great
> Awakening_ (2008), that "civil rights for gay and lesbian people
> and equal protection under the law for same-sex couples" is "a
> justice issue" (p. 229). It appears that he doesn't believe
> that homosexuality is the moral abomination that the Bible says
> it is, because it would be difficult to understand why a
> professing Christian would think that it would be "just" to
> legalize a moral abomination. He also says that he supports
> "civil unions" and "spiritual 'blessings' for gay couples."
>
> Dan Kimball says:
>
> "Because this is such a huge issue in our culture, and because
> all of the tension and discussion on this issue is over what the
> Bible says about it, we can no longer just regurgitate what we
> have been taught about homosexuality. ... As I talk to them and
> hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand
> that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn
> off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose
> to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits"
> (_They Like Jesus but Not the Church_, pp. 137, 138).
>
> Philip Yancy was scheduled as the keynote speaker at the Gay
> Christian Network's annual Mountain Top Experience in January
> 2011. The other main speaker is "Rev." Ann Phillips who "has
> been married for four years to her soulmate, Heather Wayne."
> Obviously he will not be condemning their unrepentant sin.
>
> In a 2004 interview with Candace Chellew-Hodge for _Whosoever_, a
> homosexual publication, Yancy said,
>
> "When it gets to particular matters of policy, like ordaining
> gay and lesbian ministers, I'm confused, like a lot of people
> ("Amazed by Grace," _Whosoever_ online magazine).
>
> In 2013, Rob Bell, author of _Velvet Elvis_ and former pastor of
> Mars Hill Bible Church in Michigan, said that he supports same
> sex "marriage." During a guest appearance at the apostate Grace
> Cathedral in San Francisco, Bell said, "I am for love, whether
> it's a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, a man and a man"
> ('Rob Bell Supports Same-Sex Marriage," _Christian Post_, Mar.
> 18, 2013).
>
> Also in 2013 Jim Wallis of Sojourners came out in support of
> homosexual "marriage." In an interview with _The Huffington
> Post_, Wallis said:
>
> "I think we should include same-sex couples in that renewal of
> marriage ... I want a deeper commitment to marriage that is more
> and more inclusive, and that's where I think the country is
> going" ("Jim Wallis Talks Faith's Role in Politics, Gay
> Marriage and Immigration," _Huffington Post_, Apr. 6, 2013).
>
> When _The Huffington Post_ asked Wallis to clarify if that meant
> he specifically supports same-sex marriage, Wallis answered,
> "Yes."
>
> In a 2008 interview with _Christianity Today_ Wallis had opposed
> "same-sex marriage," saying,"I don't think the sacrament of
> marriage should be changed. Some people say that Jesus didn't
> talk about homosexuality, and that's technically true. But
> marriage is all through the Bible, and it's not gender-neutral."
>
> In a July 2017 interview with Religion News Service, Eugene
> Peterson, author of the _The Message_, said that he does not
> believe that homosexuality is sinful. He said, "I know a lot of
> people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a
> spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about
> lesbians and gays might be over. People who disapprove of it,
> they'll probably just go to another church. So we're in a
> transition and I think it's a transition for the best, for the
> good." Peterson told the RNS that the church he pastored hired a
> homosexual minister of music. He said that in churches where he
> served as associate pastor, "There were several women who were
> lesbians."
>
> The Bible hasn't changed, and Jesus hasn't changed, but
> "evangelicalism" has continued its apostasy from God's Word.
>
> WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
>
> The Bible condemns the practice of homosexuality unequivocally.
>
> The Bible teaches that sexual relationships and activities
> outside of the holy bond of marriage are sinful. "_Marriage is
> honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and
> adulterers God will judge_" (Heb. 13:4). From the beginning,
> the Bible defines lawful marriage as a holy union between one man
> and one woman (Gen. 2:21-25), and Christ pointed back to the
> beginning as the divine standard (Mat. 19:4-6). The Law of
> Moses defined marriage as a covenant relationship between one man
> and one woman (Mal. 2:14-15). Since sexual relationships
> outside of marriage are sinful and since the Bible nowhere
> legitimizes marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a
> woman, it is obvious that homosexuality is forbidden. It is
> nowhere legitimized by Scripture. To say that homosexual unions
> are right is to reject the authority of the Bible.
>
> In the Old Testament, homosexual practice is condemned severely.
> The homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from
> Heaven (Genesis 18:1-24). Homosexual activists claim that the
> cities were destroyed for their lack of hospitality or for some
> reason other than homosexuality, but the New Testament makes it
> clear that they were destroyed for their "filthy conversation"
> (2 Peter 2:6-8) and their "fornication" (Jude 7).
>
> Under the Law of Moses homosexuality brought the death penalty:
>
> "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
> abomination" (Leviticus 18:22).
>
> "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put
> to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).
>
> This Law of Moses was given to Israel and it is not in force in
> Gentile nations today, but it does teach us what God thinks of
> homosexuality. "Now we know that what things soever the law
> saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth
> may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"
> (Romans 3:19).
>
> What about the biblical term "sodomite"? Some say that it
> referred only to prostitution associated with pagan temple
> worship and not to homosexuality in general. It is true that the
> term refers to male prostitution and homosexual moral perversion
> practiced in connection with idolatry (Deut. 23:17; 1 Ki.
> 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; 2 Ki. 23:7). But the term is also
> identified with homosexuality and moral perversion in general.
> The 1828 Webster dictionary defined sodomy as "a crime against
> nature." The _Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary_ of 1983
> defines sodomy as "any sexual intercourse regarded as abnormal,
> as between persons of the same sex, especially males, or between
> a person and an animal." The term is descriptive of the moral
> perversion of the city of Sodom (Genesis 19; Jude 1:7).
>
> The New Testament also treats homosexuality as a moral
> abomination. In Romans 1 homosexuality is described in
> especially intense terms.
>
> "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and
> changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness
> through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own
> bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a
> lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the
> Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave
> them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the
> natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also
> the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
> lust one toward another; men with men working that which is
> unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their
> error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain
> God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind,
> to do
> those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:22-28).
>
> Paul identified homosexuality as the product of men's rejection
> of God and God giving them up to their own sinful ways. This
> passage calls homosexuality "vile affections" (v. 26),
> "against nature" (v. 26), "leaving the natural" (v. 27),
> "unseemly" (v. 27), "reprobate mind" (v. 28), and "not
> convenient" (v. 28).
>
> The passage warns that homosexuality is the corruption of the
> imagination. It is the product of a reprobate mind. When the
> imagination is allowed to pursue wicked things it is dragged
> farther and farther into darkness and moral perversion, and this
> can begin at a very young age.
>
> In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we learn that some of the members of the
> church at Corinth had been involved in homosexuality before they
> were saved.
>
> "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
> of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
> adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
> mankind."
>
> The term "effeminate" is from the Greek word "malakos." It is
> used three times in the New Testament and twice it is translated
> "soft" (Mat. 11:8; Lk. 7:25). Webster defines it as "having
> the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly
> degree; womanish." The woman is supposed to be effeminate, but 1
> Corinthians 6:9 refers to moral perversion. It refers to the
> passive, feminine side of homosexuality.
>
> The term "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to the
> masculine side of homosexuality. It refers to that which is
> "against nature" (Rom. 1:26-27). The Greek word
> "arsenokoites" means "to lie with, or to cohabit with, a
> male." Matthew Henry (1662-1714), exemplifying the common
> interpretation of this term in earlier centuries, identified
> "abusers of themselves with mankind" with sodomy. _The Bible
> Exposition Commentary_ says: "'Effeminate' and 'abusers'
> describe the passive and active partners in a homosexual
> relationship."
>
> Some try to make the case that Jesus didn't mention
> homosexuality, pretending that this (if it were true) would prove
> that Christians should also be silent on the subject. The fact
> is that He did mention homosexuality. He mentioned the
> destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah twice in His teachings (Mark
> 6:10; Luke 17:29). Christ also upheld the Law of Moses (Mat.
> 5:18-19). Further, after His resurrection and ascension Christ
> sent the Holy Spirit to lead the disciples into all truth and to
> inspire the completion of the Scriptures (John 16:7-15). All of
> the words of the New Testament are given by divine inspiration
> and are inerrantly authoritative and come to us as revelation
> from Jesus Christ.
>
> The New Testament commands us to abhor and reprove the evil works
> of darkness.
>
> To say that it is wrong for Christians to reprove sin in society
> is to reject the Bible's own instruction.
>
> "But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his
> brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had
> done" (Luke 3:19).
>
> "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good"
> (Romans 12:9)
>
> "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
> but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:11).
>
> "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
> rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Tim.
> 4:2).
>
> The homosexual can be saved by repentance and faith in Jesus
> Christ.
>
> Paul speaks of the homosexuality in the church at Corinth in the
> past tense -- "_and such WERE some of you_" (1 Cor. 6:11).
> The members of the church at Corinth had repented of their sin
> and had become new creatures in Christ. No sinner is so evil
> that God cannot save him, but he must repent of his sin rather
> than justify it, and when God saves He changes (2 Corinthians
> 5:17). This doesn't mean the believer is sinless; it means he
> is converted and he delights in righteousness even when he
> doesn't always live up to God's righteous standards.
>
> The modern movement to allow homosexuals into churches without
> repenting of homosexuality is unscriptural. Bible believers are
> not "homophobic" any more than they are "adulteryphobic" or
> "thiefphobic" or "lierphobic." They do not hate homosexuals.
> They simply believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is
> a sin before God and that men must repent of sin in order to be
> saved.
>
> They also know that homosexuality is a special kind of sin in the
> sense that it is a sin against nature itself and a sin that is a
> particular attack upon biblical marriage and therefore has the
> power to corrupt society in a unique way.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 18:37:43 -0400
> From: David Moore <jesusloves1966 at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of Blindness in faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] The Emerging Church and Homosexuality
> Message-ID: <59cd79b7.0239810a.81539.2eb8 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Linda!
> Thank you so much for posting this. I saved that web site:
> www.wayoflife.org
> The bottom line, is that Christians are choosing to pick what they like from the Word of God, and throwing out what they do not like.
> God, himself says that the Bible is the litteral 100 percent true words of God.
> Christians are choosing not to believe that!
> They do not believe what God says, because they do not take his Words litterly, and use the correct science in interpreting the scriptures, like Revelation verses the doctrinal texts. Read 1 Cor 6. You either believe that or not! Plain and simple. Romans 1, you either believe it or not.
> Christians are throwing away the perfect words of God, and it is so sad. We really must be on our guard 24/7, looking for those who distort the truth. Paul says this again and again that this will happen in the last days.
> Thanks a lot Linda. I will share this article all over the place!
> David Moore
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Linda Mentink via Faith-Talk
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 10:37 AM
> To: Faith-talk
> Cc: Linda Mentink
> Subject: [Faith-talk] The Emerging Church and Homosexuality
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just received this article today, and thought I'd pass it
> along. This is written was David Cloud.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> THE EMERGING CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SEPTEMBER 27, 2017
>
> The following is excerpted from _WHAT IS THE EMERGING CHURCH?_
> This is an examination of the _emerging church, _a name
> describing a new approach to missions and church life among some
> "evangelicals" which is invading many independent fundamental
> Baptist churches. The author has made a great effort to
> understand the emerging church, having read more than 100 books
> and many articles by emerging church leaders, having visited
> influential emerging congregations as well as attending with
> media credentials a large emerging conference sponsored by
> Zondervan and InterVarsity Press. In reality, the emerging
> church is simply the latest heresy within the broad tent of
> evangelicalism. The Bible does not warn in vain, "Be not
> deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners" (1
> Corinthians 15:33). Chapter titles include the following: What
> Is the Emerging Church? A Great Blending and Merging. The
> Liberal Emerging Church. The "Conservative"
> Emerging Church. The book has an index. Available in print and
> eBook editions, www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143
>
> ____________
>
> Brian McLaren says:
>
> "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about
> homosexuality. ... We aren't sure if or where lines are to be
> drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines
> are drawn. ... Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making
> pronouncements" ("Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question,"
> Jan. 23, 2006,
> blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/01/brian_mclaren
> _o.html).
>
> In December 2006, McLaren spoke at the Open Door Community Church
> in Sherwood, Arkansas. The church's web site says:
>
> "The leadership at Open Door Community Churches are excited to
> see gay and non-gay Christians worshiping together as one. We
> believe that gay and non-gay Christians can and should come to
> the table of the Lord together, side by side, without labels. We
> believe that as these two historically separate communities join
> together at the cross of Jesus Christ a healing and a new
> understanding of oneness in Christ occurs in both groups. We are
> part of a growing revival of grace-filled Christians transcending
> either the terms 'conservative' or 'liberal.' Above all
> things, we are a GRACE CHURCH! We are a family embracing the full
> spectrum of race, age, gender, family status, sexual orientation,
> economic status and denominational background."
>
> In September 2012, McLaren's son Trevor "married" Owen Ryan in
> a civil ceremony led by Brian at Woodend Sanctuary of the Audubon
> Naturalist Society in Chevy Chase, Maryland
> ("Weddings/Celebrations," _New York Times_, Sept. 23, 2012).
>
> Tony Jones, National Coordinator of the Emerging Village, says:
>
> "I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical
> Christianity (as least as much as any of us can!) and that their
> monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and
> state" (Jones, "How I Went from There to Here: Same Sex
> Marriage Blogalogue," Nov. 18, 2008,
> http://blog.beliefnet.com/tonyjones/2008/11/same-sex-marriage-blo
> galogue-h.html).
>
> On January 18, 2009, Jones wrote: "Adele Sakler, whom I've
> known for a few years, has started yet another 'hyphenated'
> group within the emergent network-of-networks. She's calling it
> 'Qeermergent,' and, as you might guess, it's focused on GLBTQ
> issues."
>
> Doug Pagitt says:
>
> "It we have a theology formed in a worldview that sees sexuality
> as sin, our means, intentions, and explanations of sexuality will
> be affected" (_Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches_,
> p. 140).
>
> In an interview Chris Seay said:
>
> "In your community, are you called to the gospel of Christ, or
> are you called to be the moral police? Approach homosexuals
> without condemnation but with God's love and the gospel"
> ("Shayne Wheeler and Chris Seay on Homosexuals and the Church,"
> ChurchRelevance.com, June 19, 2007).
>
> Spencer Burke believes that "the evangelical church may be wrong
> about homosexuality"
> (http://www.zondervan.com/media/samples/pdf/0310253861_samptxt.pd
> f).
>
> Donald McCullough says that "condemning homosexuality feels
> natural because about 95 percent of us could never imagine
> engaging in such a practice" but "in a world turned upside down
> by grace, we must distrust whatever feels natural" (_If Grace Is
> So Amazing, Why Don't We Like It_, pp. 201, 202).
>
> Donald Miller tells of an experience he had as a guest on a
> conservative radio talk show program. He was asked what he
> thought about the homosexuals who are trying to take over the
> country. Instead of expressing concern about the radical
> homosexual agenda, Miller naively claimed that he wasn't aware
> of such a thing and expressed more concern about Christians who
> oppose homosexuals (pp. 187-189). He said that "morality as a
> battle cry against a depraved culture is simply not a New
> Testament idea" (p. 186). He said that if Christians are
> "using war rhetoric to communicate a battle mentality, we are
> fighting on Satan's side" (p. 190).
>
> Tony Campolo believes that homosexuals are usually born that way,
> that it is not a "volitional" problem. Campolo's wife, Peggy,
> supports homosexual marriage. In fact, she is affiliated with
> the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, the mission
> of which is "to create and support a community of churches,
> organizations and individuals committed to the inclusion of gay,
> lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons in the full life and
> mission of Baptist churches." At the New Baptist Covenant
> Celebration (AWAB) in Atlanta in January 2008, which I attended
> with press credentials, I interviewed an AWAB council member
> named Kathy Stayton. She said that she does not believe the
> first three chapters of Genesis are literal history, that
> marriage is a divinely-ordained institution, or that homosexual
> acts, even outside of "committed relationships," are sinful.
>
> At their booth at the new Baptist Covenant Celebration the AWAB
> was distributing an article by Peggy Campolo entitled "Some
> Answers to the Most Common Questions about God's GLBT [gay,
> lesbian, bisexual, transgendered] Children" from the Summer 2000
> edition of _The InSpiriter_. She counsels homosexuals to "ask
> the Holy Spirit to give you a sense of God's timing" about
> "coming out" of the closet! She says, "I can celebrate the
> committed monogamous partnerships of my gay brothers and lesbian
> sisters."
>
> Jim Wallis, founder of _Sojourners_, says in his book _The Great
> Awakening_ (2008), that "civil rights for gay and lesbian people
> and equal protection under the law for same-sex couples" is "a
> justice issue" (p. 229). It appears that he doesn't believe
> that homosexuality is the moral abomination that the Bible says
> it is, because it would be difficult to understand why a
> professing Christian would think that it would be "just" to
> legalize a moral abomination. He also says that he supports
> "civil unions" and "spiritual 'blessings' for gay couples."
>
> Dan Kimball says:
>
> "Because this is such a huge issue in our culture, and because
> all of the tension and discussion on this issue is over what the
> Bible says about it, we can no longer just regurgitate what we
> have been taught about homosexuality. ... As I talk to them and
> hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand
> that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn
> off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose
> to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits"
> (_They Like Jesus but Not the Church_, pp. 137, 138).
>
> Philip Yancy was scheduled as the keynote speaker at the Gay
> Christian Network's annual Mountain Top Experience in January
> 2011. The other main speaker is "Rev." Ann Phillips who "has
> been married for four years to her soulmate, Heather Wayne."
> Obviously he will not be condemning their unrepentant sin.
>
> In a 2004 interview with Candace Chellew-Hodge for _Whosoever_, a
> homosexual publication, Yancy said,
>
> "When it gets to particular matters of policy, like ordaining
> gay and lesbian ministers, I'm confused, like a lot of people
> ("Amazed by Grace," _Whosoever_ online magazine).
>
> In 2013, Rob Bell, author of _Velvet Elvis_ and former pastor of
> Mars Hill Bible Church in Michigan, said that he supports same
> sex "marriage." During a guest appearance at the apostate Grace
> Cathedral in San Francisco, Bell said, "I am for love, whether
> it's a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, a man and a man"
> ('Rob Bell Supports Same-Sex Marriage," _Christian Post_, Mar.
> 18, 2013).
>
> Also in 2013 Jim Wallis of Sojourners came out in support of
> homosexual "marriage." In an interview with _The Huffington
> Post_, Wallis said:
>
> "I think we should include same-sex couples in that renewal of
> marriage ... I want a deeper commitment to marriage that is more
> and more inclusive, and that's where I think the country is
> going" ("Jim Wallis Talks Faith's Role in Politics, Gay
> Marriage and Immigration," _Huffington Post_, Apr. 6, 2013).
>
> When _The Huffington Post_ asked Wallis to clarify if that meant
> he specifically supports same-sex marriage, Wallis answered,
> "Yes."
>
> In a 2008 interview with _Christianity Today_ Wallis had opposed
> "same-sex marriage," saying,"I don't think the sacrament of
> marriage should be changed. Some people say that Jesus didn't
> talk about homosexuality, and that's technically true. But
> marriage is all through the Bible, and it's not gender-neutral."
>
> In a July 2017 interview with Religion News Service, Eugene
> Peterson, author of the _The Message_, said that he does not
> believe that homosexuality is sinful. He said, "I know a lot of
> people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a
> spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about
> lesbians and gays might be over. People who disapprove of it,
> they'll probably just go to another church. So we're in a
> transition and I think it's a transition for the best, for the
> good." Peterson told the RNS that the church he pastored hired a
> homosexual minister of music. He said that in churches where he
> served as associate pastor, "There were several women who were
> lesbians."
>
> The Bible hasn't changed, and Jesus hasn't changed, but
> "evangelicalism" has continued its apostasy from God's Word.
>
> WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
>
> The Bible condemns the practice of homosexuality unequivocally.
>
> The Bible teaches that sexual relationships and activities
> outside of the holy bond of marriage are sinful. "_Marriage is
> honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and
> adulterers God will judge_" (Heb. 13:4). From the beginning,
> the Bible defines lawful marriage as a holy union between one man
> and one woman (Gen. 2:21-25), and Christ pointed back to the
> beginning as the divine standard (Mat. 19:4-6). The Law of
> Moses defined marriage as a covenant relationship between one man
> and one woman (Mal. 2:14-15). Since sexual relationships
> outside of marriage are sinful and since the Bible nowhere
> legitimizes marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a
> woman, it is obvious that homosexuality is forbidden. It is
> nowhere legitimized by Scripture. To say that homosexual unions
> are right is to reject the authority of the Bible.
>
> In the Old Testament, homosexual practice is condemned severely.
> The homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from
> Heaven (Genesis 18:1-24). Homosexual activists claim that the
> cities were destroyed for their lack of hospitality or for some
> reason other than homosexuality, but the New Testament makes it
> clear that they were destroyed for their "filthy conversation"
> (2 Peter 2:6-8) and their "fornication" (Jude 7).
>
> Under the Law of Moses homosexuality brought the death penalty:
>
> "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
> abomination" (Leviticus 18:22).
>
> "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put
> to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).
>
> This Law of Moses was given to Israel and it is not in force in
> Gentile nations today, but it does teach us what God thinks of
> homosexuality. "Now we know that what things soever the law
> saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth
> may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"
> (Romans 3:19).
>
> What about the biblical term "sodomite"? Some say that it
> referred only to prostitution associated with pagan temple
> worship and not to homosexuality in general. It is true that the
> term refers to male prostitution and homosexual moral perversion
> practiced in connection with idolatry (Deut. 23:17; 1 Ki.
> 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; 2 Ki. 23:7). But the term is also
> identified with homosexuality and moral perversion in general.
> The 1828 Webster dictionary defined sodomy as "a crime against
> nature." The _Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary_ of 1983
> defines sodomy as "any sexual intercourse regarded as abnormal,
> as between persons of the same sex, especially males, or between
> a person and an animal." The term is descriptive of the moral
> perversion of the city of Sodom (Genesis 19; Jude 1:7).
>
> The New Testament also treats homosexuality as a moral
> abomination. In Romans 1 homosexuality is described in
> especially intense terms.
>
> "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and
> changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness
> through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own
> bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a
> lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the
> Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave
> them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the
> natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also
> the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
> lust one toward another; men with men working that which is
> unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their
> error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain
> God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind,
> to do
> those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:22-28).
>
> Paul identified homosexuality as the product of men's rejection
> of God and God giving them up to their own sinful ways. This
> passage calls homosexuality "vile affections" (v. 26),
> "against nature" (v. 26), "leaving the natural" (v. 27),
> "unseemly" (v. 27), "reprobate mind" (v. 28), and "not
> convenient" (v. 28).
>
> The passage warns that homosexuality is the corruption of the
> imagination. It is the product of a reprobate mind. When the
> imagination is allowed to pursue wicked things it is dragged
> farther and farther into darkness and moral perversion, and this
> can begin at a very young age.
>
> In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we learn that some of the members of the
> church at Corinth had been involved in homosexuality before they
> were saved.
>
> "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
> of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
> adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
> mankind."
>
> The term "effeminate" is from the Greek word "malakos." It is
> used three times in the New Testament and twice it is translated
> "soft" (Mat. 11:8; Lk. 7:25). Webster defines it as "having
> the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly
> degree; womanish." The woman is supposed to be effeminate, but 1
> Corinthians 6:9 refers to moral perversion. It refers to the
> passive, feminine side of homosexuality.
>
> The term "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to the
> masculine side of homosexuality. It refers to that which is
> "against nature" (Rom. 1:26-27). The Greek word
> "arsenokoites" means "to lie with, or to cohabit with, a
> male." Matthew Henry (1662-1714), exemplifying the common
> interpretation of this term in earlier centuries, identified
> "abusers of themselves with mankind" with sodomy. _The Bible
> Exposition Commentary_ says: "'Effeminate' and 'abusers'
> describe the passive and active partners in a homosexual
> relationship."
>
> Some try to make the case that Jesus didn't mention
> homosexuality, pretending that this (if it were true) would prove
> that Christians should also be silent on the subject. The fact
> is that He did mention homosexuality. He mentioned the
> destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah twice in His teachings (Mark
> 6:10; Luke 17:29). Christ also upheld the Law of Moses (Mat.
> 5:18-19). Further, after His resurrection and ascension Christ
> sent the Holy Spirit to lead the disciples into all truth and to
> inspire the completion of the Scriptures (John 16:7-15). All of
> the words of the New Testament are given by divine inspiration
> and are inerrantly authoritative and come to us as revelation
> from Jesus Christ.
>
> The New Testament commands us to abhor and reprove the evil works
> of darkness.
>
> To say that it is wrong for Christians to reprove sin in society
> is to reject the Bible's own instruction.
>
> "But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his
> brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had
> done" (Luke 3:19).
>
> "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good"
> (Romans 12:9)
>
> "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
> but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:11).
>
> "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
> rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Tim.
> 4:2).
>
> The homosexual can be saved by repentance and faith in Jesus
> Christ.
>
> Paul speaks of the homosexuality in the church at Corinth in the
> past tense -- "_and such WERE some of you_" (1 Cor. 6:11).
> The members of the church at Corinth had repented of their sin
> and had become new creatures in Christ. No sinner is so evil
> that God cannot save him, but he must repent of his sin rather
> than justify it, and when God saves He changes (2 Corinthians
> 5:17). This doesn't mean the believer is sinless; it means he
> is converted and he delights in righteousness even when he
> doesn't always live up to God's righteous standards.
>
> The modern movement to allow homosexuals into churches without
> repenting of homosexuality is unscriptural. Bible believers are
> not "homophobic" any more than they are "adulteryphobic" or
> "thiefphobic" or "lierphobic." They do not hate homosexuals.
> They simply believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is
> a sin before God and that men must repent of sin in order to be
> saved.
>
> They also know that homosexuality is a special kind of sin in the
> sense that it is a sin against nature itself and a sin that is a
> particular attack upon biblical marriage and therefore has the
> power to corrupt society in a unique way.
>
>
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> End of Faith-Talk Digest, Vol 122, Issue 16
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