[humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog policy does not discriminate

Sun Feb 22 02:51:45 UTC 2009

Thanks Marion,

I think You're finally winning me over.

JB

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "Human Services Mailing List" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog policy does 
not discriminate

> James,
>    In my opinion, it's not a matter of the white cane being "superior"; 
> rather, it is a matter of fundamental basic skills. Though every guide dog 
> school says they require O&M skills prior to training with a guide dog, 
> the practical application of this policy seems to fall well short of 
> reality. The white cane is the foundation of good O&M skills, thus the 
> reason guide dog schools at least assert they require it. Furthermore, 
> there are numerous situations in which a cane is the better choice for 
> mobility than a guide dog,e.g., roller skating, fishing on a crowded boat, 
> inclement weather. concerts, fairs, and visiting someone in their home 
> where a dog may not be welcome because of allergies or just the desire to 
> not have a dog in the home, to name just a few. In addition, if the dog 
> becomes ill and the handler does not have cane travel skills, the person 
> is unable to maintain independence and will not be able to go out!
>    I'm not sure if it was on this list or not, but I made the following 
> analogy of the importance of having options for mobility. A carpenter 
> learns to use a hammer, but the carpenter cannot build a house with only a 
> hammer. If the carpenter says, "I don't want to learn to use the saw, the 
> level, the plumb bob, or any of the other tools of the trade, they will 
> not be a very good carpenter. I know many guide dog users who refuse to 
> use a cane and make many irrational statements about their guide dog, such 
> as, "If a person doesn't want my dog in their house, they don't want me in 
> their house!" I believe they have given the dog so much importance that 
> they have lost their independence without it. They may not have good 
> mobility skills with the cane and, for this reason, may not want to use it 
> because they feel self-conscious with it. I know several people who refuse 
> to use a cane and severely limit themselves and their potential because 
> they limit the tools they are willing to use.
>    A training center, such as the Iowa Commission for the Blind and the 
> NFB centers are justified in their assertion that guide dog users need to 
> take part in their O&M training! It cannot be assumed that, just because 
> someone uses a guide dog, they have good O&M skills. Now, if the guide dog 
> schools really did demand that a person have good white cane travel 
> skills, that may be a different story. Then again, what would "good white 
> cane travel skills" be? Just as those who attend NFB centers get O&M 
> training, whether they have already had it or not, guide dog users must 
> engage in the same program. It is part and parcel to their program. If 
> they let someone choose which parts of the program they will participate 
> in and which they will not, the entire program would be less effective 
> because there would be no consistency. Without this consistency, the 
> program would be viewed less favorably because no one would be able to 
> determine which parts of the program were implemented and which were not.
>    I alluded to taking classes in an earlier message. I once wrote a very 
> controversial letter to the editor of my university newspaper because 
> another blind student in my program claimed that, because of his 
> blindness, he should be exempt from taking statistics. I argued that doing 
> so devalued my degree, since others who see that I graduated from the same 
> program could wonder whether or not I received an adequate education. If a 
> student at a particular center was able to pick and choose which part of 
> the training to participate in, would that not call into question the very 
> efficacy of the training?
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users
> National Federation of the blind
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Brown" <jbrown321 at comcast.net>
> To: "Human Services Mailing List" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog policy 
> does not discriminate
>
>
>> Hi Shannon,
>>
>> I'm going to copy your statement below, but I'm going to insert cane 
>> users in the place of dog users because I have seen the same thing on the 
>> other side.
>>
>> Here's the converse of your statement.  I agree about the skills of some 
>> of those who use canes.  I've seen some who are fantastic and others who 
>> I wonder how they manage to get out of their own house.
>>
>> Weather it's a cane or dog, some people are going to get around better no 
>> matter how much training they have.  You can't train physical and 
>> cognitive aptitude.
>>
>> What I want to know is, are canes really a better mode of travel than 
>> dogs? Because by mandating in depth, pervaisive cane travel, it sends an 
>> unspoken message of superiority.
>>
>> Again, I'm not talking about the legality, but the principal.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Shannon Cook" <SCook at sccb.sc.gov>
>> To: "'Human Services Mailing List'" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog policy 
>> does not discriminate
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I agree about the skills of some of those who have dogs.  I've seen some 
>>> who are fantastic and others who I wonder how they manage to get out of 
>>> their own house.  Thanks for your thoughts on this topic.  I can 
>>> understand more why this decision was made.
>>>
>>> Shannon Cook, MSW
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Alicia Richards
>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:02 PM
>>> To: Human Services Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guidedog policy 
>>> does not discriminate
>>>
>>> Oops, I sent my earlier email to the wrong list.  My apologies!  *Smile* 
>>> I
>>> had meant to respond to Shannon.
>>>
>>> Yes, some of the things you say are true, Shannon.  A person who attends
>>> guide dog school is, technically, supposed to have good mobility 
>>> already,
>>> and be signed off by an O&M instructor.  However, this is definitely not
>>> always the case by a longshot. Not all clients who go through guide dog
>>> programs do in fact have good mobility skills.  I used to have a guide 
>>> dog
>>> myself, and I assure you that quite a few of the people in my class had
>>> terrible mobility skills, yet they, and their instructor, thought a dog
>>> would simply fix that problem.  My school actually had to send one 
>>> student
>>> home, she was that poor of a traveler.
>>>
>>> Also, when you go to a college to get a certain degree, rarely can you 
>>> just
>>> skip classes because you feel like it.  If the college does give you 
>>> that
>>> option, you most generally have to test out of that class, and if the 
>>> school
>>> is not satisfied with your test results, you don't get to skip the 
>>> class.
>>> So it seems to go with a Center.  If you go to a Center, in my opinion, 
>>> part
>>> of what you must accept is their entire program, or don't go to that
>>> particular Center.  Or, if the Center is going to make adjustments, then
>>> they should test the person's skills in that particular area, but 
>>> reserve
>>> the right not to allow them out of that course if they are not satisfied
>>> with the skills they see.
>>>
>>> Alicia
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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