[humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate
Marion & Martin
swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Mon Feb 23 16:09:09 UTC 2009
James,
First of all, let me make it very clear....I am a male! (smile)
Now, I hope to answer your questions. My point of using the analogy of a
hammer as the fundamental tool of a carpenter was to say that a carpenter
cannot build a house with only that one tool. Your comparison of a nail gun
to a guide dog is quite interesting and, I suppose a little accurate;
however, it also allows me to further make the point that an apprentice
carpenter would not begin to learn the skills of carpentry by using a nail
gun. Similarly, a nail gun may not be the most appropriate tool to replace a
hammer in every circumstance, so an apprentice who never learned how to use
a hammer, always opting to use only a nail gun, would probably not be a
skilled carpenter. Since I am not a carpenter, I couldn't tell you what
specific applications would be inappropriate for a nail gun rather than a
hammer, but I could see that perhaps some very delicate work might require a
different tool. Also, I'm not sure if a nail gun can remove a nail, but i
know a hammer can!
Now, for your question about my choice to use a guide dog rather than a
white cane, I'm not sure where you got the statistic you mentioned of me
using a guide dog 90% of the time. I actually currently use my guide dog
10-20% of the time, as she is semi-retired. However, let me continue my
analogy of a carpenter. Another fundamental skill of a carpenter is the use
of a saw. Most carpenters I have seen seem to use an electric saw. However,
the hand saw is the fundamental skill. Again, I'm not a carpenter, so my
understanding is very limited and only intended to help explain.
Guide dog users must have some fundamental skills to effectively use a
guide dog. Unfortunately, too many guide dog users do not have these
fundamental skills and too many guide dog schools don't really require them.
I would also like to say that, even if someone who had already received
O&M instruction from somewhere else would go to this or any other quality
center with a similar policy, they would most likely receive cane travel
skill training. Of course, they could argue that they already had the
training, but it probably would not make a difference. I know this is so at
all of the NFB training centers and is probably true for the Iowa center,
too.
NAGDU is planning to have a panel discussion of this policy at our
national convention, so I hope those of you interested in this issue will
come and hear what they have to say. Watch the list for more information.
Fraternally,
Mr. marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Brown" <jbrown321 at comcast.net>
To: "Human Services Mailing List" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy
does not discriminate
> Hi Marion,
>
> First, I want to say that I have a lot of respect for you and others on
> this list who have given so much to the blind community, and anything I
> say is sincere without a tone of animosity.
>
> But there is a logical inconsistency that I am trying to get a grasp on.
> If you believe that the use of a long white cane is the fundamental skill
> of mobility, yet use a dog 90% of the time, by your actions are you
> denying your own words?
>
> Marion, you used the counselor's favorite metaphor. We do have a toolbox
> full of tools. We have a hammer, which you say is like cane mobility.
> Building on that metaphor, you say that a house can't be built without a
> hammer.
>
> But what if a guide dog is like a nailgun? Would you be able to build the
> house using the nailgun instead of the hammer? Do they not have the same
> purpose and serve the same function? I'm sure that they both have their
> pros and cons, but why is cane use so fundamental?
>
> You listed some places where it would be more convenient to use a cane,
> but, with the new silent cars becoming more and more prevalent, I can see
> guide dogs saving the lives of many blind people.
>
> can anyone give more reasons to show how "the use of a long white cane is
> the fundamental skill of mobility"?
>
> Can everybody see the comedy in this? I've never been a dog lover, and
> I'm defending guide dogs. Marion is the head of the Guide dog
> association, and she's defending cane travel, smile!
> Ps, my server is getting me the messages at all different times, so I am
> sorry for any strange sequences of replies.
> In love and jest,
> James
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "Human Services Mailing List" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy
> does not discriminate
>
>
>> James,
>> As the President of the National Association of Guide Dog users, I
>> would like to offer my comments to answer your questions. I believe that
>> the use of a long white cane is the fundamental skill of mobility. Unless
>> one is able to travel with a cane, one will not be fully competent with a
>> guide dog. In addition, there are many circumstances in which a guide dog
>> is not the most appropriate choice for mobility tools, e.g., going to a
>> concert, roller skating, or going to someone's house who would prefer to
>> not have a dog in their residence.
>> When a person goes to guide dog school, they expect to learn to use a
>> dog. These people are not upset when they are asked to put their canes
>> aside during training so as to learn how to effectively use the guide
>> dog! I do not understand why people are so upset that a training facility
>> that focuses upon using the white cane wants you to put aside your guide
>> dog for a time in order to focus upon that skill! As I mentioned earlier,
>> unless a person has a variety of mobility tools and learns how to make
>> use of them for their specific circumstances, that person is not fully
>> independent. A carpenter has many tools in his arsenal and has learned to
>> use each one, as each has a specific application. you cannot build a
>> house with a hammer, but you need a hammer in order to build that house!
>> JMHO!
>>
>> fraternally,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide dog Users
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "James Brown" <jbrown321 at comcast.net>
>> To: "Human Services Mailing List" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy
>> does not discriminate
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Can you share some knowledge with someone who has always been a cane
>>> user?
>>>
>>> Setting aside all the legalities, what does everyone think about this
>>> case? Any die hard cane users out there? How about you guide dog
>>> lovers, what do you think?
>>>
>>> Is there a significant difference between using a cane or dog? Is
>>> either one really that perfect?
>>>
>>> Are we trying to shape other blind people into our own image, all the
>>> while damaging the individuality of the blind population?
>>>
>>> whether it's a stick or a dog, aren't we all depending on something?
>>>
>>> Is this a kind of twisted psychology, or is it more about being
>>> practical?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> JB
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Wilson,Joanne (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)"
>>> <JWilson at nfb.org>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: [humanser] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy
>>> does not discriminate
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM
>>> To: Brammer, Robert [AG]
>>> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept.
>>> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate
>>>
>>> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa
>>> Attorney General's Office - 515-281-6699.)
>>> Please find a release pasted below. This will be
>>> posted soon at
>>> <http://www.iowaattorneygeneral.org/>www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org
>>> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this
>>> case in Polk County District Court.
>>> Best regards, Bram
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> For immediate release - Thursday, February 19, 2009.
>>> Contact Bob Brammer - 515-281-6699
>>>
>>> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's
>>> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate
>>>
>>> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has
>>> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the
>>> State of Iowa Department for the Blind
>>> discriminated against her by refusing her request
>>> to use a guide dog while she attended the
>>> Department's orientation and adjustment training program.
>>>
>>> The Department for the Blind
>>> orientation and training program is a
>>> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally
>>> non-visual approach to teaching blindness
>>> skills. Students with partial vision are
>>> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance
>>> upon any visual cues during training. Department
>>> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids
>>> within the orientation and training program,
>>> including guide dogs. The Department has no
>>> objection to guide dogs in other situations.
>>>
>>> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally
>>> blind, attended the program for several months
>>> beginning in September 2000 and sought to
>>> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog.
>>>
>>> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that
>>> the Department's policy violated her rights under
>>> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws
>>> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability.
>>>
>>> After a six-day trial, the
>>> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered
>>> Wednesday.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Department for the Blind, which
>>> was represented in the trial by the Iowa
>>> Attorney General, argued that a totally
>>> non-visual approach - and training without
>>> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids -
>>> is the most effective approach for
>>> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills
>>> and techniques for dealing with blindness.
>>>
>>> The Department places no limitations
>>> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings,
>>> including in the Department for the Blind
>>> building in downtown Des Moines. For example,
>>> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department,
>>> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied
>>> Keninger during her testimony at the trial.
>>>
>>> The orientation program typically
>>> includes about six months of full-time training
>>> in various problem-solving skills, such as
>>> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille,
>>> using computers, and dealing with many other situations.
>>>
>>> The Department for the Blind's
>>> orientation and adjustment program was
>>> established in 1959 and is considered by many to
>>> be one of the most effective in the country.
>>>
>>> During the trial, the State
>>> Department for the Blind presented testimony from
>>> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a
>>> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation
>>> Services Administration, which oversees programs
>>> for the blind around the country.
>>>
>>> "Iowa's orientation program
>>> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also
>>> is Executive Director of the National Federation
>>> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge
>>> program and a model for other states." Wilson is
>>> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went
>>> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself.
>>>
>>> Schroeder said: "To me the central
>>> point is that individuals have a choice in the
>>> type of training they take. While programs must
>>> and should make reasonable accommodations, they
>>> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program."
>>>
>>> - 30 -
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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