[humanser] Recording for note taking

Mon May 26 20:22:04 UTC 2014

Mary,

Good luck, and I hope you can let us know how it works out.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sun, 25 May 2014 18:13:31 -0400, Dr. Chappell wrote:

>Steve,
>You bring a relevant consideration to our attention. This situation, not
>unlike so many other situations, is complex. I have considered the varying
>points you set forth and, given my heightened awareness of the arbitrary
>nature of the issue and the associated timing, I am believing  that what has
>been, until now, a readily accepted reasonable accommodation is still
>indicated. Forgive me if you believe this to be short-sighted but, I am firm
>in this opinion. I welcome feedback from the masses to corroberate or refute
>my position.
>Genuinely,
>Mary Tatum Chappell, Psy. D.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>Jacobson via humanser
>Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:07 PM
>To: Carly Mihalakis via humanser
>Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking

>Sometimes I think it is so tempting to get caught up in the reasonable
>accommodations issues that more practical considerations can be overlooked.
>First, as much as possible, I think we need to have a way of taking notes.
>Certainly a braille device is nice and preferable for many of us, but I take
>a lot of notes on a laptop and as has been said, there are ways to do it
>with an iPad or iphone as well.  I have heard of people whispering into a
>stenomask as another possible approach.  In general, recordings simply have
>a different legal status than do notes.  The existence of a recording can
>have implications for the speaker as well in a way that notes do not.  Most
>of the time, the ability to record won't be an issue, but taking notes is
>virtually never an issue, and taking notes allows the adding of additional
>information, reactions, or 
>thoughts, that are not part of what is being said.   

>Since we do not and probably should not know the exact concerns here, we can
>only deal in generalities, and it is possible they do not apply here.  One
>has to realize that there are generally two types of meetings.  One type is
>a meeting where information is being presented and distributed where most of
>the participants are really there to receive information.  The other kind of
>meeting is where all present are involved and the purpose is to arrive at a
>decision or a conclusion.  Personnel meetings are often of the second type
>in my experience.  

>In this second type of meeting, often areas are explored for the purpose of
>working toward a decision or conclusion, but the areas explored are not
>necessarily significant in and of themselves.  There can be cases where any
>participant may float an idea that they know is not practical but to get a
>sense of what the other participants think, to find the boundaries of
>agreement as it were.  The presence of a recorder in such a meeting can
>impede such exchanges which can be useful.  Notes, by their very nature,
>reflect the reactions of the note-taker and don't constitute proof that
>something was stated as reflected in those notes.

>I would think it would make a lot of sense to analyze what the purpose of a
>meeting is and then decide upon the approach to take based upon the purpose.
>If there is likely going to be an outcome that must be agreed upon, having
>the agreement so you can feel certain you understand it is going to be a
>necessity, but it may not be necessary to have every word available that got
>you to that agreement.  Unless one takes shorthand, a sighted person who
>feels they want to take notes isn't going to have every word.  In addition,
>a recording could inhibit discussion that might actually be to the advantage
>of an employee.  

>It may be worth considering that there might be two separate issues here.
>First, How does one be sure to accurately get information that is presented.
>That is generally what is captured in note taking, and getting such
>information in writing before a meeting would be another approach to getting
>that information.  The second issue is accountability.  If one does not
>trust the people with whom they are meeting, it might work to ask that there
>be minutes of the meeting to which both of you must agree as a compromise to
>recording.  If there is truly a concern that something will be said in a
>meeting but later denied, the possibility of including a third uninvolved
>person might be explored.  Obviously, one should have the chance to read any
>document before one signs it, but sometimes one is better off having a
>reader read the document that is being signed than depending on an
>accessible version that may not have the final updates.  These things are
>tricky.

>I don't know if a recording is always seen under the law as a reasonable
>accommodation as a substitute for taking notes.  Whether it is or not, I
>think it has to be realized that the existence of a recording is more
>complicated than simply whether it is or is not a reasonable accommodation.
>It isn't selling out to look for a solution that meets ones needs while
>allowing others to be more comfortable.  Sometimes, I think we too quickly
>reduce complicated issues to simple ones of reasonable accommodations that
>could even limit our own options.  

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson  

>On Sun, 25 May 2014 04:18:39 -0700, Carly Mihalakis via humanser wrote:

>>Good morning, Karen and everyone,

>>         As a brain damaged person, that is precisely the manner in 
>>which I come to know material covered in class, by Streaming the 
>>lectures then, using the lecture, I put the material into my own words 
>>and type them upon my home comput.
>>for today, Car

>>in which I reveiw material, cisely thae At 11:38 AM 5/24/2014, you wrote:
>>>I did not know you had hand sensitivity issues and could not read back 
>>>in braille. However there is an app called M brain which would allow 
>>>you to take notes using the braille keyboard used on the onboard 
>>>keyboard of the iPhone and then read back in audio. Check out check 
>>>out M Brea as an app for the iPhone. Sent from my iPhone > On May 24, 
>>>2014, at 10:50 AM, Karen Rose via humanser <humanser at nfbnet.org>
>>>wrote: > > Hi - why not take notes with a bbraille note taker? Or why 
>>>not simply record on your phone from inside your purse and no one 
>>>would ever know? Everyone else seems to be using their phones for this 
>>>purpose. Smile. Karen > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 24, 2014, at
>>>9:37 AM, "Dr. Chappell via humanser" 
>>><humanser at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >> Doug, >> You spoke directly to my 
>>>reasons for emphasing the
>>>request: >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting 
>>>independent of any other >> control; or arrange for the communication 
>>>to be in writing in the first >> place. >> >> 2.
>>>Prevent any communication that could later be misrepresented with no 
>>>>> means of defense. >> Thank you for the encouragement and notable 
>>>awareness. I will proceed with >> caution. >> -----Original 
>>>Message----- >> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>Behalf Of Doug Lee >> via humanser >> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 
>>>8:39 AM >> To: Dr. Chappell via humanser >> Subject: Re: [humanser] 
>>>Recording for note taking >> >> This is not a legal opinion, and I do 
>>>not possess sufficient legal knowledge >> to render one. This is a 
>>>personal opinion... >> >> This sounds very strange to me from the 
>>>beginning, as if they have something >> to say of which they want 
>>>limited if any record.
>>>I would, in your position, >> want control of who is taking the notes 
>>>if I didn't do it myself, and I >> would want to know if it is legal 
>>>for me to insist that I choose my >> assistant and without providing 
>>>any advance notice of who I will bring to >> the meeting. I would also 
>>>want to know if it is legal for me to insist on >> permission to 
>>>record the meeting, since it sounds like the substance of the >> 
>>>meeting concerns you and would not contain sensitive information about 
>>>>> anyone else.
>>>Finally, I wonder if perhaps the organizers of the meeting >> would be 
>>>willing to provide you with the same information in writing rather >> 
>>>than by talking to you in a meeting whose record you are being 
>>>forbidden to >> control. If it is any official communication to you, 
>>>such as a performance >> problem, a written account should not be a 
>>>problem I would think. >> >> The specific goals of my response to this 
>>>situation would be as follows, and >> I would want both met properly: 
>>>>> >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting inde 
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