[humanser] Recording for note taking

Tue May 27 19:39:46 UTC 2014

Hello Mary,

I believe that you should trust your instincts on this one.  You are the one
that has worked with these individuals for so many years and know how they
have and are currently operating.  In our profession, we tell our clients to
trust their instincts in regards to keeping them safe; I believe you are
right on target.

Please keep us updated,
Merry

-----Original Message-----
From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dr.
Chappell via humanser
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:14 PM
To: 'Steve Jacobson'; 'Human Services Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking

Steve,
You bring a relevant consideration to our attention. This situation, not
unlike so many other situations, is complex. I have considered the varying
points you set forth and, given my heightened awareness of the arbitrary
nature of the issue and the associated timing, I am believing  that what has
been, until now, a readily accepted reasonable accommodation is still
indicated. Forgive me if you believe this to be short-sighted but, I am firm
in this opinion. I welcome feedback from the masses to corroberate or refute
my position.
Genuinely,
Mary Tatum Chappell, Psy. D.
-----Original Message-----
From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Jacobson via humanser
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:07 PM
To: Carly Mihalakis via humanser
Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking

Sometimes I think it is so tempting to get caught up in the reasonable
accommodations issues that more practical considerations can be overlooked.
First, as much as possible, I think we need to have a way of taking notes.
Certainly a braille device is nice and preferable for many of us, but I take
a lot of notes on a laptop and as has been said, there are ways to do it
with an iPad or iphone as well.  I have heard of people whispering into a
stenomask as another possible approach.  In general, recordings simply have
a different legal status than do notes.  The existence of a recording can
have implications for the speaker as well in a way that notes do not.  Most
of the time, the ability to record won't be an issue, but taking notes is
virtually never an issue, and taking notes allows the adding of additional
information, reactions, or 
thoughts, that are not part of what is being said.   

Since we do not and probably should not know the exact concerns here, we can
only deal in generalities, and it is possible they do not apply here.  One
has to realize that there are generally two types of meetings.  One type is
a meeting where information is being presented and distributed where most of
the participants are really there to receive information.  The other kind of
meeting is where all present are involved and the purpose is to arrive at a
decision or a conclusion.  Personnel meetings are often of the second type
in my experience.  

In this second type of meeting, often areas are explored for the purpose of
working toward a decision or conclusion, but the areas explored are not
necessarily significant in and of themselves.  There can be cases where any
participant may float an idea that they know is not practical but to get a
sense of what the other participants think, to find the boundaries of
agreement as it were.  The presence of a recorder in such a meeting can
impede such exchanges which can be useful.  Notes, by their very nature,
reflect the reactions of the note-taker and don't constitute proof that
something was stated as reflected in those notes.

I would think it would make a lot of sense to analyze what the purpose of a
meeting is and then decide upon the approach to take based upon the purpose.
If there is likely going to be an outcome that must be agreed upon, having
the agreement so you can feel certain you understand it is going to be a
necessity, but it may not be necessary to have every word available that got
you to that agreement.  Unless one takes shorthand, a sighted person who
feels they want to take notes isn't going to have every word.  In addition,
a recording could inhibit discussion that might actually be to the advantage
of an employee.  

It may be worth considering that there might be two separate issues here.
First, How does one be sure to accurately get information that is presented.
That is generally what is captured in note taking, and getting such
information in writing before a meeting would be another approach to getting
that information.  The second issue is accountability.  If one does not
trust the people with whom they are meeting, it might work to ask that there
be minutes of the meeting to which both of you must agree as a compromise to
recording.  If there is truly a concern that something will be said in a
meeting but later denied, the possibility of including a third uninvolved
person might be explored.  Obviously, one should have the chance to read any
document before one signs it, but sometimes one is better off having a
reader read the document that is being signed than depending on an
accessible version that may not have the final updates.  These things are
tricky.

I don't know if a recording is always seen under the law as a reasonable
accommodation as a substitute for taking notes.  Whether it is or not, I
think it has to be realized that the existence of a recording is more
complicated than simply whether it is or is not a reasonable accommodation.
It isn't selling out to look for a solution that meets ones needs while
allowing others to be more comfortable.  Sometimes, I think we too quickly
reduce complicated issues to simple ones of reasonable accommodations that
could even limit our own options.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson  

On Sun, 25 May 2014 04:18:39 -0700, Carly Mihalakis via humanser wrote:

>Good morning, Karen and everyone,

>         As a brain damaged person, that is precisely the manner in 
>which I come to know material covered in class, by Streaming the 
>lectures then, using the lecture, I put the material into my own words 
>and type them upon my home comput.
>for today, Car

>in which I reveiw material, cisely thae At 11:38 AM 5/24/2014, you wrote:
>>I did not know you had hand sensitivity issues and could not read back 
>>in braille. However there is an app called M brain which would allow 
>>you to take notes using the braille keyboard used on the onboard 
>>keyboard of the iPhone and then read back in audio. Check out check 
>>out M Brea as an app for the iPhone. Sent from my iPhone > On May 24, 
>>2014, at 10:50 AM, Karen Rose via humanser <humanser at nfbnet.org>
>>wrote: > > Hi - why not take notes with a bbraille note taker? Or why 
>>not simply record on your phone from inside your purse and no one 
>>would ever know? Everyone else seems to be using their phones for this 
>>purpose. Smile. Karen > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 24, 2014, at
>>9:37 AM, "Dr. Chappell via humanser" 
>><humanser at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >> Doug, >> You spoke directly to my 
>>reasons for emphasing the
>>request: >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting 
>>independent of any other >> control; or arrange for the communication 
>>to be in writing in the first >> place. >> >> 2.
>>Prevent any communication that could later be misrepresented with no
>>>> means of defense. >> Thank you for the encouragement and notable
>>awareness. I will proceed with >> caution. >> -----Original
>>Message----- >> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>Behalf Of Doug Lee >> via humanser >> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014
>>8:39 AM >> To: Dr. Chappell via humanser >> Subject: Re: [humanser] 
>>Recording for note taking >> >> This is not a legal opinion, and I do 
>>not possess sufficient legal knowledge >> to render one. This is a 
>>personal opinion... >> >> This sounds very strange to me from the 
>>beginning, as if they have something >> to say of which they want 
>>limited if any record.
>>I would, in your position, >> want control of who is taking the notes 
>>if I didn't do it myself, and I >> would want to know if it is legal 
>>for me to insist that I choose my >> assistant and without providing 
>>any advance notice of who I will bring to >> the meeting. I would also 
>>want to know if it is legal for me to insist on >> permission to 
>>record the meeting, since it sounds like the substance of the >> 
>>meeting concerns you and would not contain sensitive information about
>>>> anyone else.
>>Finally, I wonder if perhaps the organizers of the meeting >> would be 
>>willing to provide you with the same information in writing rather >> 
>>than by talking to you in a meeting whose record you are being 
>>forbidden to >> control. If it is any official communication to you, 
>>such as a performance >> problem, a written account should not be a 
>>problem I would think. >> >> The specific goals of my response to this 
>>situation would be as follows, and >> I would want both met properly:
>>>> >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting inde
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