[MusicTlk] Question to low-vision piano players

Ned O'Brien ned968 at gmail.com
Sat Feb 10 13:31:22 UTC 2018


Mike, how are you doing with piano lessons? did u chk out the nls bard
audio courses?
ned

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Ned O'Brien <ned968 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike, here is a link to the nls music course catalog, looks like some
> choices for basic piano. Make sure you get all the basics memorized, and
> you will never have to look at the keybd.
> https://www.loc.gov/nls/braille-audio-reading-materials/music-materials/
> catalogs-circulars-available-music-section/instructional-
> music-recordings-catalog/
> good luck
> ned
>
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 6:42 PM, BillList1 via MusicTlk <
> musictlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
>> My buddy, Grant Horrocks, has both his blind and sighted students learn
>> what
>> he calls piano geography.  They get seated in front of the piano keyboard
>> and oriented spatially to it.  Then, he has them put their hands in their
>> laps.  The sighted students must wear a blindfold.
>>
>> Then, he says something like: "C major triad."  The student must raise
>> their
>> hands and play that triad with both hands in root position.  I have seen a
>> demonstration of it at a conference and his blind student nailed it almost
>> every time.
>>
>> As Linda said, getting oriented and comfortable with the instrument is
>> really key.  Using the position of the black keys as a reference also
>> makes
>> sense.  Of course, I am a self-taught pianist.  My main instrument is
>> trumpet.  I am totally blind and I do feel my way around the keyboard.
>>
>> If you use a head-mounted telescope, you might like to try an evaluation
>> version of our Lime Lighter software.  The music tracks to your eye across
>> the screen from right to left so you do not need to shift your gaze very
>> far
>> from left to right.  Here is a link to a 63-second video summary.  For
>> more
>> information, please write me off-list at my info at DancingDots.com address.
>>
>> One-minute Summary of Features of Lime Lighter Music-reading Solution for
>> Low Vision Performers
>> http://www.dancingdots.com/huge/DancingDotsLimeLighterOneMinuteVideo.mp4
>> or on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDDrLgZMdOU
>>
>> Bill McCann
>> President
>> Dancing Dots
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: MusicTlk [mailto:musictlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>> Jolls
>> via MusicTlk
>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 9:29 AM
>> To: Music Talk Mailing List for Blind Musicians
>> Cc: Mike Jolls
>> Subject: Re: [MusicTlk] Question to low-vision piano players
>>
>> Ned
>>
>> Thank you for replying.  Here are a couple of thoughts in reply.
>>
>> First, I'll have to check out the music course you mention.  You never
>> know
>> what "gems" your going to find.
>>
>> Second, about piano teachers.  My experience so far with the piano is that
>> most teachers don't have a clue about how to advise a low vision player.
>> I
>> wear a head-mounted telescope and can only read about a measure at a time
>> through that device.  I've told my teacher that, but she really doesn't
>> have
>> much to say in the way of tips.  I've been telling HER some of the things
>> I've been trying .. such as feeling my way along the keyboard.  It's been
>> pretty much up to me to figure out how to get around problems.
>> Interesting
>> to say the least.
>>
>> Third, your comment about memorization is probably good advice.  My
>> mother,
>> who plays piano, tells me that once I learn the music, I should memorize
>> it.
>> That removes the problem of not being able to sight read easily and you
>> can
>> focus more on navigating the keyboard.  I've already memorized a couple of
>> relatively easy Bach pieces (they're pieces a 10-12 year old would learn,
>> so
>> they're not real difficult) and I play them each day to keep them fresh.
>> What I'm working on now is a Chopin piece.  It is NOT easy. There are a
>> LOT
>> of two octave jumps and doing it by feel is a challenge.  I've only been
>> working on the first two lines, and it's a BEAR to memorize.  Perhaps my
>> ability to memorize is affected by my age .. I'm 61.  Still, I'm not
>> giving
>> up.  I love this piece.  I told myself when I started taking piano I was
>> going to go as far as I can.  At this point, I know enough theory to be
>> able
>> to look at this piece and understand what it's asking of me.  I'm not
>> going
>> to quit, unless after much work I see it just isn't going to happen.
>>
>> Fourth, you say you are learning Braille.  Is that literary Braille?  Yes,
>> it takes time and work, but if literary Braille is what you're learning,
>> hang in there.  When you can't see to read print and you've been sighted,
>> well low vison, your whole life (I was there a few years ago with very
>> severe cataracts) it's a real downer.  I determined in my mind that I was
>> going to try to read Braille because I didn't like not being able to read.
>> It took me about 9 months to learn Braille.  When I finished my course, it
>> took me 25 minutes to read a single page of Braille.  I had to keep
>> reading
>> and working at it, but I got better.  Now I only take 4 minutes to read a
>> page.  The thing I got out of Braille was liberation.  I was no longer a
>> captive to not being able to read.  My advice to you is to keep it up.
>> You
>> will get there and you'll be able to read.  And when that day comes,
>> you'll
>> be glad you put the time in.  The one downside I found to Braille is that
>> there isn't a lot of selection of material you can get in the way of
>> pleasure reading . at least through the NLS.  Most of their content is in
>> audio.  When I learned and saw how I could read despite my poor vision, I
>> wanted to get my hands on as much Braille as I could.  The NLS was a real
>> disappointment.  Now, several years after getting my cataracts taken care
>> of
>> and my bad vision restored, I still read Braille because it's a good skill
>> to have.  Anyway, my advice to you is to see it to the end and see what it
>> means for you.  I was glad I did.  You may be too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows
>> 10
>>
>> From: Ned O'Brien via MusicTlk<mailto:musictlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 8:04 AM
>> To: Music Talk Mailing List for Blind Musicians<mailto:musictlk at nfbn
>> et.org>
>> Cc: Ned O'Brien<mailto:ned968 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [MusicTlk] Question to low-vision piano players
>>
>> Mike, here's some advice from experience....I have taken lessons and
>> played
>> the organ for 15 yrs, with slowly failing vision, always had a tough time
>> seeing the music to play but did it...I have lost enough vision that I am
>> unable to read music at all.That's when I realized that I really couldn't
>> play the organ, none of my teachers had ever taught me to memorize music.
>> I
>> have started over learning to play, I am using an nlsbard available audio
>> book series..modern keybd harmony by bill irwin, it is a course done
>> exclusively for the blind.  so before you lose all vision, start learning
>> to
>> memorize....I am currently learning braille which is quite difficult for
>> an
>> old guy.
>> best of luck to you
>> ned
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Linda Mentink via MusicTlk <
>> musictlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Mike,
>> >
>> > It is bad practice to look at the keys while playing. Yes, you are on
>> > to it. If you place your fingers where you can feel the black keys,
>> > that will help a lot, and you'll even be able to do octave jumps. It's
>> > a matter of muscle memory and lots of practice. Just as you type
>> > without looking at the keys, so you play the piano without looking at
>> the
>> keys!
>> >
>> > Blessings,
>> >
>> > Linda
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Ella Yu via MusicTlk <musictlk at nfbnet.org
>> > To: Music Talk Mailing List for Blind Musicians <musictlk at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:58:17 -0800
>> > Subject: Re: [MusicTlk] Question to low-vision piano players
>> >
>> > I think it works just fine.  I don't know if I exactly use this
>> > method, since I'm often not conscious of it, but I think I do.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Mike Jolls via MusicTlk <musictlk at nfbnet.org
>> > To: "musictlk at nfbnet.org" <musictlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Mon, 22 Jan
>> > 2018 22:34:44 +0000
>> > Subject: [MusicTlk] Question to low-vision piano players
>> >
>> > Hello everyone, and particularly to low-vision piano players ..
>> > I have a question about sight reading and keeping track of where you
>> > are on the piano.
>> > I? a low vision piano student.  Luckily I have enough vision to use a
>> > telescope and can read standard printed music (although I can only
>> > read a measure at a time unfortunately, but it? better than nothing).
>> > My teacher has told me to sight read and not look at the keyboard.
>> > Even if I do try to look at my hands from time to time, it? difficult
>> > (depending on how far down the keyboard I have to look) because my low
>> > vision makes it difficult to see exactly where I am depending on the
>> > distance down the keyboard where I? trying to look).  Therefore, I?e
>> > come to the conclusion that if possible, sight has to be eliminated in
>> > piano playing, as far as looking at my hands.  In other words, I have
>> > to navigate by feel like a totally blind person.  To this point, I?e
>> > been struggling with how to do this.  I?e recently come up with a
>> > potential solution, but I wanted to run it by you all to see if I? on
>> > the right track.
>> >
>> > My idea is to play with my fingers engaging the black keys, and then
>> > using the black keys around my fingers as a reference to know where I
>> > am and how far I have to go to the next key.  As an example, Let? say
>> > I? playing a G with my right hand.  I COULD just play a G with my
>> > fingers on the white portion of the key (not engaged in, or in between
>> > the black heys) .  But then, let?
>> > say I had to go to a D above it.  If I was just on the white portion
>> > of the key, I wouldn? know how far to go to the D above
>> > it.   However, if I played the G with my finger in between the
>> > two black keys, I could then use the black keys to feel my way to the
>> > D above it, since I? be able to feel the gap between Bb and C#, and I?
>> > know the D is immediately after C# black key.
>> >
>> > That? a long way of saying, use the black keys as tactile navigation
>> > markers.
>> >
>> > I was playing some Bach and trying to sight-read the piece, and it
>> > seemed that when the distances of the notes were fairly close
>> > together, being engaged with the black keys helped a lot in mentally
>> > keeping track of where I was, and realizing where the next key was
>> > located.  This was because I could use the black keys as tactile
>> > markers to help me know where the next key was located by feel,
>> > assuming I understand how the keyboard is laid out.  I had to feel to
>> > locate the next key, but that seemed to work and it seemed I made
>> > fewer errors as I sight-read the music without looking at my hands.
>> >
>> > Now, I realize I can? use this technique for everything.  Two octave
>> > jumps (for example) are going to have to be another thing altogether.
>> > I might just have to look, if I can.  Or I might have to learn the
>> > piece and do that from muscle memory.  But at least for short distance
>> > passages, it seems this is promising.
>> > If this is something you?e all learned to do and actively use this
>> > technique, then I?e at least solved one part of the navigation puzzle,
>> > and hopefully I can develop it.
>> >
>> > So, has anybody used this technique of keeping their fingers engaged
>> > in the black keys to give themselves a tactile cue to help find their
>> > way around the keyboard?  Am I on to something?
>> > Is this a bad method?  Would it slow you down, especially when you had
>> > to play fast passages?  I don? want to continue this if it? going to
>> > be a bad habit.
>> >
>> > Please let me know.  I have to say I was pretty excited when I found I
>> > was more successful with this Bach piece with this method when I was
>> > trying to stay focused on the music.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the information.
>> >
>> > Mike Jolls
>> >
>> >
>> >
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