[MusicTlk] I'd like to have a civil, nonjudgemental discussion about audio production techniques, if we can manage to do so.

Wed Nov 16 23:08:44 UTC 2022

Oh, you don't have to worry about me chewing you or anyone out. I knew 
from the very very beginning that this would inevitably strike up a bit 
of an interesting topic, and like you, I'd be saddened if it did turn to 
unhealthy bickering back and forth. But, we're not there at this point, 
which is good. I mean, I'd think though we may have some youth on here, 
and not that I am by any means discounting their maturity in some cases, 
but at the end of the day we're mostly adults here, and those who may 
not be, I'd certainly hope know how to treat their elders with respect. 
So, I think we're good for now. I definitely think the points you gave 
are valid.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with your statement about starting out 
seeing things from the bigger picture though. Mainly because, how can 
you do that when you don't have anything to start with. In one way or 
another, the product has to be built up in one fassion or another. That 
said however, I do acknowledge your opinion on the matter and take your 
point with a positive attitude.

Chris.

---
Chris Gilland

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/c/chrisgilland

On 11/16/2022 5:50 PM, Chris Nusbaum via MusicTlk wrote:
> Hi Chris:
>
> You have challenged us to have a "civil, nonjudgmental discussion" about
> audio production, and I hope that you agree with my assessment that those
> who have responded thus far have risen to that challenge very well. As a
> leader in the NFB Performing Arts Division, which sponsors this list, I have
> been giving a lot of thought recently to how we can facilitate a place where
> blind sound engineers can share tips, tricks and experiences with each
> other. Like you, however, I know from my own experience in this field that
> opinions on how various things should be done differ widely, and a
> discussion that starts out as a healthy debate can turn unhealthy if one
> isn't careful. So, I for one am glad to see the positive spirit in which
> this discussion is taking place, and I hope it can be a harbinger of things
> to come.
>
> Now for a few comments of my own in answer to your questions. I should first
> qualify my statements by saying that my production experience is in
> podcasting and radio, while my musical experience is in performance. So I
> recognize that my kind of production and yours are different in many ways.
> However, I think the general principles you are asking about apply to both.
> Specifically, I think the concept that "less is more" is as applicable to
> editing a podcast or producing a radio show as it is to mixing a track.
> Until very recently, I used Goldwave for everything. I'm now in the process
> of learning Reaper through a course recommended to me by a fellow blind
> broadcaster. As I'm sure many on this list know, Reaper has many more
> capabilities than Goldwave, and in many cases is more precise in its
> editing. However, I'm sure I won't use all the features I learn in every
> project, and I may never use some of them at all. Even as I go through this
> process, there will be internal debates between my radio colleagues, with
> some telling me I'm wasting my time with Reaper and should switch to a Mac
> if I ever hope to do any serious production, while others counter that
> getting a board and setting up a studio will make life easier on everyone
> involved. I think these debates are worth having because I learn something
> from them and they build collaborative relationships--as long as they stay,
> in your words, "civil (and) nonjudgmental."
>
> I would like to make a final comment which I think is important to both
> performance and production. In my opinion, it's important to look at a
> project from the bigger picture first, then work through the small details
> second. In the end, all that matters to an audience is how the final product
> sounds. If your experience is anything like mine, once you figure out what
> you want that final product to sound like, remembering that your audience
> isn't primarily made up of musicians and audio engineers, you may find that
> all the technical details you were thinking about at first aren't as
> important as you thought they were.
>
> In conclusion, your post has pointed up the very aspect of the audio
> production field that makes it at once interesting and frustrating: there
> are as many philosophies about how to do it as there are people who do it.
> But, on second thought, perhaps the same can be said of many other subjects:
> performance, songwriting, and blindness skills, among many, many others.
> Thanks for starting an interesting dialogue; I look forward to seeing where
> it goes.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Chris Nusbaum
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MusicTlk <musictlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Christopher
> Gilland via MusicTlk
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 12:47 PM
> To: David Fritz via MusicTlk <musictlk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Gilland <clgilland07 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MusicTlk] I'd like to have a civil, nonjudgemental discussion
> about audio production techniques, if we can manage to do so.
>
> David wrote in part::
>
>
> Many of these recipes, do it like this or like that, is to hide flaws in
> cheap sound synthesis, cheap sound cards etc.
>
> Can you elaborate on that a bit perhaps with a basic practical example?
>
>
> I mean, here's the thing. Don't get me wrong. I do agree that a certain
> level of mixsing and mastering definitely! definitely definitely! should be
> applied. But I say, don't just do it because you think it makes it sound
> better/sexy. Do it because you're really going for a very very very specific
> sound.
>
>
> I'll give you a really great example and we'll stick with vocals, 'cause,
> why not. Everyone loves them, so...
>
>
> Perhaps you've heard of a really popular technique used by a lot of
> engineers these days called the "vocal throws" effect.
>
>
> Take the song, Don't Turn Around by Ace of Bass. Great great great great
> example.
>
>
> If you listen to the vocal literally at the very very very very
> beginning of the song, the female says, "I will survive, without you."
>
>
> OK, listen on the phrase, "Without you." You hear how for just that
> split 3 sylabals, no more, when you hear the word, "you," you kind of
> hear this delayish effect that is tempo synced, probably a dotted 8th
> note, that echos back that same phrase, "without you", and kind of
> swells away into the song itself. That, is what I mean by a vocal throw.
> So, things like that, you could use a bit of a delay to achieve, but to
> just apply delay because, humdy ding dong, it sounds all coo, n all?
> Yeah. Sure. Whatever.
>
>
> More directly put, I say use the 80 20 principle... 80 percent of your
> work should be in the production. People always send me their songs to
> critique, and you know what, David? I can't help but each time to get so
> cracked up laughing.
>
>
> They send me these ProTools or Logic/Reaper sessions, and they go, Hey
> Chris. Listen to my mix.
>
>
> It's like, Wut? Like, doo'ood! Ehh kayyy. I don't wanna listen to your
> mix. I wanna listen to your song!
>
>
> Ya know, people're like, "Hey Chris, why does my mix sound so ammature?"
> Unfortunately, I have to be bold enough to be honest with them while
> also being respectful, and that's not usually easy to do with the way
> they present the material content to me.
>
>
> You will relate to this, if you've been working this field like you said
> since 78. That's even longer than I've been alive, uh, no offense. I
> literally mean, 9 times out of 10, literally! The mix isn't the problem.
> The problem is the production/arrangement.
>
>
> Let me tell you something. If anyone sends a song to an engineer who
> says, just send me what you got, no need to do much with editing the
> vocals/comping them, no need to worry about good vocal technique, no
> need to worry about good music dynamics, and by that I don't mean just
> volume dynamics. I'm speaking here more of building your song. Cutting
> out lots of the low mids frequence range to unmuddy up that part of the
> spectrum, etcetera, just send me what you got. I can do some abbra
> caddabra magic on it, and make the song sound unbelievably good, trust
> and leave it to me, Sir/Mam/Mix, don't! And I repeat, don't! don't don't
> don't! waist your money, as you'll be very very sadly throwing your
> pennies to the... no pun intended, Ozone. Those people are fakes.
> Period! Full stop, Cerca, the fat lady sang.
>
>
> You send a legit and credible producer something like that where you've
> not taken your time putting together the arrangement to start off
> sounding really really good, that producer's not even going to take your
> money, I guarantee it. They'll just say, "Sorry, caint help ya." Or, at
> the very least if they do! work with you, they'll tell you straight up,
> I can, and will mix this, but just know, it's not gonna improve the
> quality of this song, end of discussion.
>
>
> You know, it's like people start at the wrong part of the process.
> Mixing yes, should be an aspect, don't get me wrong, but that comes at
> the end, not! the beginning.
>
>
> Think of it this way. I tell you I'm gonna build this really really
> great house. It's just gonna be the awesomest thing ever! Oh man, it's
> gonna be great. It's gonna have nice windows, nice hardwood floors,
> beautiful wallpaper, nice skylight highrises, a beautiful back
> porch/deck, a wonderful nercery for the kiddos, heck, I'll even build
> that nice changing table right into the wall you need so you don't have
> to go buy one from Baby's R Us.
>
>
> You say to me, "Oh this is wonderful! Where are you gonna start with the
> building?" I say, "Hmm. I dunno. I'm thinking maybe of starting with
> painting."
>
>
> Wut?
>
>
> I mean, do you see how absurd this is? You haven't even dug the land,
> you've not determined the foundation, you've not checked with the city
> to see if you even could build property on this area in the first place.
>
>
> Kind of reminds me of an old bible song I learned in the 1980's as a
> preschooler. The wise man built his house upon the rock, and the house
> stood tall. Yet the foolish man built his house upon the sand, and the
> house went smash!
>
>
> In other words, get it right at the source. Then, and only! then, start
> worrying about the still rellavent, but less! rellavent stuff like
> mixing. If you can produce something up front that sounds incredible,
> chances are much better that when you go to mix, edit, and master
> things, you'll have a heck of a lot easier a time on yourself.
>
>
> My challenge to anyone who doesn't believe me on this is, give yourself
> 6 hours all total to produce a song. It doesn't have to be something you
> wrote. It can be a cover if you feel more comfortable going that route
> instead. But, I want you to take 4 of those hours actually producing
> recording and arranging your recording. Don't worry about the mixing or
> about gosh dang it, I was flat on that phrase, etc. Just arrange it and
> record it. Then, take only! the last 2 of those 6 hours, absolutely no
> more under any conditions. Force yourself to that time restraint. 2
> final hours, and only! 2, and only! after things have already been
> tracked, to then edit things as needed, and finally mix.
>
>
> I guarantee 1 billion percent, you'll see a night and day's difference
> in the final project.
>
>
> Chris.
>
>
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