[nabs-l] Social Etiquette
Serena
serenacucco at verizon.net
Tue Nov 4 00:29:24 UTC 2008
I'll second observing similar behavior at NFB conventions, especially
national. Having said that, it's not just blind people, believe me. I
remember at high school tallent shows and college class meetings, most
people were cheering for the performer or their class president, but it got
a bit loud for me sometimes. Another example, at a band rehearsal in high
school, most people were out right fooling around and not paying attention
to the music. My band teacher tried a strategy: singling me and another
student out as doing exactly what we were supposed to do, although neither
of us were reading music. The strategy worked to some extent, although one
of the drummers ended up having to scream "shut up!" to get everybody to be
quiet.
Serena
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
> Arielle,
>
> I agree. They may behave inappropriately because they are not motivated
> to change their behavior.
> Parents giving rewards and taking them to places where they can practice
> the skills and observe with their other senses how to act are the best
> things I can think of.
>
> I see many inappropriate behaviors at gatherings of blind people in the
> NFB. I don't want to offend anyone, but this does not give me a positive
> view of the nfb. I am a member of a chapter but I question whether I want
> to hang around people who thing they are the center of the world and
> really don't care about others who try and help.
> I was raised to say thanks and please at the right time as well as
> politely decline help if I don't need it.
>
> Some behaviors I witness:
> 1. people answering their
> phones during meetings when there is a speaker in the front of the room
>
> 2. talking while someone else is speaking; so many side conversations in
> the room and makes it difficult to hear; I've been to many meetings for
> internships, Student government meetings to observe, and club meetings and
> never do I see such behavior; if someone is inattentive they are doing
> something quiet like reading or texting on the phone, but not disrupting
> the meeting
> 3. Interrupting a conversation.
> 4. When discussing something like an event where people just generally
> talk and the officers hear ideas, members talk to one part of the room
> rather than the whole room of people.
> 5. Placement of canes; I know NFB likes straight canes; I personally use
> folding for convenience. But if you choose to use a straight cane, it is
> your responsibility to place it in a way where others won't trip. Placing
> it where it sticks out from the table is a tripping hazzard. I place mine
> under my feet or fold it and place it by my chair and its small so does
> not stick out.
> 6. General manners; sighted people have to read menus at dinner meetings
> which are the usual thing to meet at a restaurant for us. Few people
> thank them for their help.
> 7. People leave early because their ride is there. Why come at all if you
> have to come early or leave late. Its disruptive when people don't stay
> for the whole meeting. I rarely see this at other events other than at
> events with blind people. Even at college with immature students, they
> come for the who event or not at all. If they do have to leave early they
> leave quietly and sit near the door so they can slip out when needed.
>
> Okay I know this was a novel, but it really got me to thinking when social
> etiquette came up about the rude behaviors I see at NFB events.
>
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I appreciate everyone's responses on these threads; you will help to
>> contribute to an excellent, informative page on the NABS Web site
>> geared toward transitioning youth. I would definitely like to include
>> skill areas as well as suggestions for practical things that students
>> can do to improve in those areas in preparation for either college or
>> work. Obviously we will emphasize the importance of receiving good
>> training (from an NFB center etc.), but what are suggestions for some
>> other ways that students can learn/practice skills?
>>
>> I also agree that many blind people do not behave in accordance with
>> etiquette rules--my point is just that I think in many cases, it's not
>> just because they "don't know better" but because they don't feel
>> motivated to change their behavior. If people are not held to high
>> expectations they may know intellectually that something should or
>> shouldn't be done in public (and be able to explain it to you, etc.)
>> but they haven't had any reason to care about their behavior. That's
>> why I'm skeptical that simply telling someone that a behavior is
>> inappropriate once is really enough to motivate them to
>> change--although being nagged might be an incentive in the short term.
>> I also think it's important to understand this when we observe others
>> around us who don't follow social conventions--it's not necessarily
>> that they innocently don't know any differently, but rather that they
>> may know it intellectually but not really understand it on an
>> emotional level, or they may simply not care unless they have some
>> personal incentive to act in a more appropriate way.
>>
>> On the Web site we can certainly suggest ways for high school students
>> to get involved in real social situations (such as joining
>> extracurriculars or shopping with friends) where they will not only
>> learn these rules/skills but also develop real incentives to attend to
>> their social behavior. For example, when I was in high school I did
>> competitive speech for two years and there were certain nonverbal
>> behaviors that we were all expected to do. I knew if I wanted to win
>> the round, I had to do my best to make eye contact with the judges,
>> stand straight, use appropriate gestures and not rock, for example.
>> People could remind me about those things a thousand times in class or
>> at home, but it was in a speech tournament where those things really
>> mattered in a tangible way that I really started paying closer
>> attention to them.
>>
>> Other thoughts besides the extracurricular and shopping examples I gave
>> above?
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 11/3/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That would be the same as picking one's nose or biting one's nails. I
>>> admit I rocked my head like Stevie Wonder does sometimes or did. God
>>> knows when I saw him last! Anyway, to answer Sarah's question, a
>>> gentle but discrete and firm "This kind of thing i.e. pking of eyes,
>>> moving head, rocking is not appropriate in public" is fine with me.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/2/08, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> Many of us have or had them because they are forms of self
>>>> stimulation ... self soothing. They feel good so we do them
>>>> naturally. We do them when we are anxious, bored and the like.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 04:25 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>This is such a great topic. I admit that I had blindisms and still
>>>>> struggle
>>>>>to extinguish them totally. I have eye-poking issues and rock
>>>>> occasionally.
>>>>>What's interesting is that these seem to be common for all blind
>>>>>people.
>>>>> Why
>>>>>is it that we all seem to have these blindisms from the start and have
>>>>>to
>>>>>extinguish them as we grow?
>>>>>I worked at a camp for the blind in the summer and I noticed a bunch of
>>>>>these blindisms but I found it hard to point them out to campers out of
>>>>>shyness and because they were in the company of their parents, my age,
>>>>>or
>>>>>much older. It was weird. If I work there again though I think much of
>>>>>my
>>>>>shyness will be gone though. But how do you tell people their behavior
>>>>>is
>>>>>inappropriate without embarrassing them? Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>Of Hope Paulos
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:27 PM
>>>>>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>>>
>>>>>Arielle points out several good examples here and I believe this
>>>>>to be a wonderful post. I just wanted to add an experience of my
>>>>>own and of others with whom I work. When I was very young, I had
>>>>>several "Blindisms"- I would rock when not in a rocking chair,
>>>>>and I would poke my eye. My parents would not allow me to do
>>>>>this. When I got older, my grandmother was talking about how
>>>>>much I'd matured. She said she was so proud that I didn't
>>>>>exhibit those blindisms. I asked my mother why she insisted that
>>>>>I stop rocking and she explained that it was socially
>>>>>inappropriate. There are times, especially being totally blind,
>>>>>when people do things that are socially inappropriate, but they
>>>>>don't even know this fact. My mother said that she knew that I
>>>>>couldn't see the people around me and the fact they were not
>>>>>rocking or poking their eyes. She needed to put a stop to these
>>>>>behaviors. She wanted me to not be laughed at and to be socially
>>>>>appropriate. Arielle, I'm not sure if this was what you were
>>>>>talking about, but I figured I'd add it in. It is in no way my
>>>>>intention to offend people. If I have i apologize. When I
>>>>>worked at Perkins, I worked with people that would make certain
>>>>>sounds or flap their hands. These students ranged in age from 9
>>>>>to 14. It was extremely difficult to extinguish these behaviors
>>>>>at those ages. The students progressed when it came time for
>>>>>me to leave, but I am uncertain as to whether the behaviors have
>>>>>been extinguished fully.
>>>>>
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>> >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >Date sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:43:21 +1100
>>>>> >Subject: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>>>
>>>>> >Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> >I certainly think that social skills/etiquette is important for
>>>>>high
>>>>> >school students to understand when transitioning to college and
>>>>> >beyond. One of the difficulties with detailing it on the fact
>>>>>sheet is
>>>>> >that many rules of etiquette and social grace vary depending on
>>>>>the
>>>>> >situation and the expectations of the people around. Just as
>>>>>there is
>>>>> >more than one way to look fashionable, there is more than one way
>>>>>to
>>>>> >be "well-mannered" and what is considered appropriate for one
>>>>>setting
>>>>> >may be considered wildly inappropriate in a different one.
>>>>>Really what
>>>>> >I think we want to capture is the ability to adapt to situations
>>>>>and
>>>>> >"blend in" by following the social/etiquette norms called for in
>>>>>those
>>>>> >situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> >I would also point out that I think most adolescents (blind and
>>>>> >sighted) who didn't grow up under a rock have a pretty good
>>>>> >intellectual knowledge of what is and isn't appropriate public
>>>>> >behavior. However, there is a big difference between simply
>>>>>knowing
>>>>> >what's appropriate and actually complying with social norms. In
>>>>>order
>>>>> >to comply with social norms one must know what they are, and also
>>>>>be
>>>>> >motivated to comply with them, and be in full control of their
>>>>> >behavior. Returning to the hypothetical ten-year-old kid who
>>>>>picks
>>>>> >his nose in public, it's possible that he honestly doesn't know
>>>>>that
>>>>> >it's inappropriate. More likely, though, is that he's been told
>>>>>it's
>>>>> >inappropriate before (or laughed at for doing it), but he simply
>>>>> >doesn't care-either because his parents didn't scold or punish
>>>>>him for
>>>>> >doing it, or because they did but they're simply not around in
>>>>>the
>>>>> >situation and the kid doesn't think he's likely to get in trouble
>>>>>for
>>>>> >picking his nose. A third possibility is that he is motivated to
>>>>>not
>>>>> >pick his nose, but he's just spaced out and doesn't realize he's
>>>>>doing
>>>>> >it, or he has a bad nasal itch and feels compelled to scratch
>>>>>inside
>>>>> >his nose to relieve it, etc. The point is that mere knowledge of
>>>>> >etiquette isn't enough-people have to be motivated (ideally,
>>>>> >self-motivated) to do what's appropriate. There are some
>>>>>behaviors
>>>>> >commonly seen in blind people-known as "blindisms"-that can
>>>>>become so
>>>>> >habitually ingrained that even when people become motivated to
>>>>>stop
>>>>> >they still have difficulty doing it. Eye-poking is an example
>>>>>of a
>>>>> >behavior that most people engaging in it know full well that it's
>>>>> >unattractive (and bad for their eyes), and often people are
>>>>>motivated
>>>>> >to stop, but some have a very hard time completely eliminating
>>>>>it.
>>>>> >(Speaking from personal experience here, but also from
>>>>>conversations
>>>>> >with teenagers and adults who have genuinely struggled to stop
>>>>>and
>>>>> >still find themselves occasionally poking their eyes). To give a
>>>>> >different example, I think the vast majority of adults know about
>>>>>the
>>>>> >negative consequences of being chronically late for things, but
>>>>>there
>>>>> >are just some people who are always late-maybe they just don't
>>>>>care,
>>>>> >or maybe they do but just haven't figured out how to organize
>>>>>their
>>>>> >time so they're not late, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> >That said, I do think parents and teachers can help kids improve
>>>>>their
>>>>> >social etiquette-not only by teaching what's appropriate
>>>>>(knowledge),
>>>>> >but by instilling motivation. Blind kids may be less motivated
>>>>>than
>>>>> >sighted kids to comply with social expectations either because
>>>>>they've
>>>>> >been held to lower standards by adults or because they don't see
>>>>>other
>>>>> >people's negative reactions to their behavior. So I think the
>>>>>emphasis
>>>>> >should be on teaching blind kids and teens to truly care about
>>>>> >conducting themselves well in public, adapting to different
>>>>>social
>>>>> >situations and building connections with others-rather than just
>>>>> >telling them to do or not do certain things. Giving rewards for
>>>>>good
>>>>> >behavior and punishments for bad is motivating to an extent, but
>>>>> >eventually kids need to be motivated regardless of who's around
>>>>>to
>>>>> >observe their actions. Ideally they will learn through
>>>>>experience that
>>>>> >following social norms and initiating connections with others
>>>>>makes
>>>>> >them happier and helps them to reach their goals.
>>>>>
>>>>> >So how do we do this? Any ideas?
>>>>>
>>>>> >Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>> >nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>for nabs-l:
>>>>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul
>>>>>os%40maine..edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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