[nabs-l] Social Etiquette
Rania
raniaismail04 at gmail.com
Tue Nov 4 04:10:05 UTC 2008
The same thing happened during a choir rehersel in high school.
Rania,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
> I'll second observing similar behavior at NFB conventions, especially
> national. Having said that, it's not just blind people, believe me. I
> remember at high school tallent shows and college class meetings, most
> people were cheering for the performer or their class president, but it
> got a bit loud for me sometimes. Another example, at a band rehearsal in
> high school, most people were out right fooling around and not paying
> attention to the music. My band teacher tried a strategy: singling me and
> another student out as doing exactly what we were supposed to do, although
> neither of us were reading music. The strategy worked to some extent,
> although one of the drummers ended up having to scream "shut up!" to get
> everybody to be quiet.
>
> Serena
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>
>
>> Arielle,
>>
>> I agree. They may behave inappropriately because they are not motivated
>> to change their behavior.
>> Parents giving rewards and taking them to places where they can practice
>> the skills and observe with their other senses how to act are the best
>> things I can think of.
>>
>> I see many inappropriate behaviors at gatherings of blind people in the
>> NFB. I don't want to offend anyone, but this does not give me a positive
>> view of the nfb. I am a member of a chapter but I question whether I
>> want to hang around people who thing they are the center of the world and
>> really don't care about others who try and help.
>> I was raised to say thanks and please at the right time as well as
>> politely decline help if I don't need it.
>>
>> Some behaviors I witness:
>> 1. people answering their
>> phones during meetings when there is a speaker in the front of the room
>>
>> 2. talking while someone else is speaking; so many side conversations in
>> the room and makes it difficult to hear; I've been to many meetings for
>> internships, Student government meetings to observe, and club meetings
>> and never do I see such behavior; if someone is inattentive they are
>> doing something quiet like reading or texting on the phone, but not
>> disrupting the meeting
>> 3. Interrupting a conversation.
>> 4. When discussing something like an event where people just generally
>> talk and the officers hear ideas, members talk to one part of the room
>> rather than the whole room of people.
>> 5. Placement of canes; I know NFB likes straight canes; I personally use
>> folding for convenience. But if you choose to use a straight cane, it
>> is your responsibility to place it in a way where others won't trip.
>> Placing it where it sticks out from the table is a tripping hazzard. I
>> place mine under my feet or fold it and place it by my chair and its
>> small so does not stick out.
>> 6. General manners; sighted people have to read menus at dinner meetings
>> which are the usual thing to meet at a restaurant for us. Few people
>> thank them for their help.
>> 7. People leave early because their ride is there. Why come at all if
>> you have to come early or leave late. Its disruptive when people don't
>> stay for the whole meeting. I rarely see this at other events other than
>> at events with blind people. Even at college with immature students,
>> they come for the who event or not at all. If they do have to leave
>> early they leave quietly and sit near the door so they can slip out when
>> needed.
>>
>> Okay I know this was a novel, but it really got me to thinking when
>> social etiquette came up about the rude behaviors I see at NFB events.
>>
>> Ashley
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I appreciate everyone's responses on these threads; you will help to
>>> contribute to an excellent, informative page on the NABS Web site
>>> geared toward transitioning youth. I would definitely like to include
>>> skill areas as well as suggestions for practical things that students
>>> can do to improve in those areas in preparation for either college or
>>> work. Obviously we will emphasize the importance of receiving good
>>> training (from an NFB center etc.), but what are suggestions for some
>>> other ways that students can learn/practice skills?
>>>
>>> I also agree that many blind people do not behave in accordance with
>>> etiquette rules--my point is just that I think in many cases, it's not
>>> just because they "don't know better" but because they don't feel
>>> motivated to change their behavior. If people are not held to high
>>> expectations they may know intellectually that something should or
>>> shouldn't be done in public (and be able to explain it to you, etc.)
>>> but they haven't had any reason to care about their behavior. That's
>>> why I'm skeptical that simply telling someone that a behavior is
>>> inappropriate once is really enough to motivate them to
>>> change--although being nagged might be an incentive in the short term.
>>> I also think it's important to understand this when we observe others
>>> around us who don't follow social conventions--it's not necessarily
>>> that they innocently don't know any differently, but rather that they
>>> may know it intellectually but not really understand it on an
>>> emotional level, or they may simply not care unless they have some
>>> personal incentive to act in a more appropriate way.
>>>
>>> On the Web site we can certainly suggest ways for high school students
>>> to get involved in real social situations (such as joining
>>> extracurriculars or shopping with friends) where they will not only
>>> learn these rules/skills but also develop real incentives to attend to
>>> their social behavior. For example, when I was in high school I did
>>> competitive speech for two years and there were certain nonverbal
>>> behaviors that we were all expected to do. I knew if I wanted to win
>>> the round, I had to do my best to make eye contact with the judges,
>>> stand straight, use appropriate gestures and not rock, for example.
>>> People could remind me about those things a thousand times in class or
>>> at home, but it was in a speech tournament where those things really
>>> mattered in a tangible way that I really started paying closer
>>> attention to them.
>>>
>>> Other thoughts besides the extracurricular and shopping examples I gave
>>> above?
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 11/3/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That would be the same as picking one's nose or biting one's nails. I
>>>> admit I rocked my head like Stevie Wonder does sometimes or did. God
>>>> knows when I saw him last! Anyway, to answer Sarah's question, a
>>>> gentle but discrete and firm "This kind of thing i.e. pking of eyes,
>>>> moving head, rocking is not appropriate in public" is fine with me.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/2/08, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Many of us have or had them because they are forms of self
>>>>> stimulation ... self soothing. They feel good so we do them
>>>>> naturally. We do them when we are anxious, bored and the like.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> At 04:25 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>This is such a great topic. I admit that I had blindisms and still
>>>>>> struggle
>>>>>>to extinguish them totally. I have eye-poking issues and rock
>>>>>> occasionally.
>>>>>>What's interesting is that these seem to be common for all blind
>>>>>>people.
>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>is it that we all seem to have these blindisms from the start and have
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>extinguish them as we grow?
>>>>>>I worked at a camp for the blind in the summer and I noticed a bunch
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>these blindisms but I found it hard to point them out to campers out
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>shyness and because they were in the company of their parents, my age,
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>much older. It was weird. If I work there again though I think much of
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>shyness will be gone though. But how do you tell people their behavior
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>inappropriate without embarrassing them? Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>Of Hope Paulos
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:27 PM
>>>>>>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Arielle points out several good examples here and I believe this
>>>>>>to be a wonderful post. I just wanted to add an experience of my
>>>>>>own and of others with whom I work. When I was very young, I had
>>>>>>several "Blindisms"- I would rock when not in a rocking chair,
>>>>>>and I would poke my eye. My parents would not allow me to do
>>>>>>this. When I got older, my grandmother was talking about how
>>>>>>much I'd matured. She said she was so proud that I didn't
>>>>>>exhibit those blindisms. I asked my mother why she insisted that
>>>>>>I stop rocking and she explained that it was socially
>>>>>>inappropriate. There are times, especially being totally blind,
>>>>>>when people do things that are socially inappropriate, but they
>>>>>>don't even know this fact. My mother said that she knew that I
>>>>>>couldn't see the people around me and the fact they were not
>>>>>>rocking or poking their eyes. She needed to put a stop to these
>>>>>>behaviors. She wanted me to not be laughed at and to be socially
>>>>>>appropriate. Arielle, I'm not sure if this was what you were
>>>>>>talking about, but I figured I'd add it in. It is in no way my
>>>>>>intention to offend people. If I have i apologize. When I
>>>>>>worked at Perkins, I worked with people that would make certain
>>>>>>sounds or flap their hands. These students ranged in age from 9
>>>>>>to 14. It was extremely difficult to extinguish these behaviors
>>>>>>at those ages. The students progressed when it came time for
>>>>>>me to leave, but I am uncertain as to whether the behaviors have
>>>>>>been extinguished fully.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>>> >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >Date sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:43:21 +1100
>>>>>> >Subject: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I certainly think that social skills/etiquette is important for
>>>>>>high
>>>>>> >school students to understand when transitioning to college and
>>>>>> >beyond. One of the difficulties with detailing it on the fact
>>>>>>sheet is
>>>>>> >that many rules of etiquette and social grace vary depending on
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> >situation and the expectations of the people around. Just as
>>>>>>there is
>>>>>> >more than one way to look fashionable, there is more than one way
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> >be "well-mannered" and what is considered appropriate for one
>>>>>>setting
>>>>>> >may be considered wildly inappropriate in a different one.
>>>>>>Really what
>>>>>> >I think we want to capture is the ability to adapt to situations
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> >"blend in" by following the social/etiquette norms called for in
>>>>>>those
>>>>>> >situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I would also point out that I think most adolescents (blind and
>>>>>> >sighted) who didn't grow up under a rock have a pretty good
>>>>>> >intellectual knowledge of what is and isn't appropriate public
>>>>>> >behavior. However, there is a big difference between simply
>>>>>>knowing
>>>>>> >what's appropriate and actually complying with social norms. In
>>>>>>order
>>>>>> >to comply with social norms one must know what they are, and also
>>>>>>be
>>>>>> >motivated to comply with them, and be in full control of their
>>>>>> >behavior. Returning to the hypothetical ten-year-old kid who
>>>>>>picks
>>>>>> >his nose in public, it's possible that he honestly doesn't know
>>>>>>that
>>>>>> >it's inappropriate. More likely, though, is that he's been told
>>>>>>it's
>>>>>> >inappropriate before (or laughed at for doing it), but he simply
>>>>>> >doesn't care-either because his parents didn't scold or punish
>>>>>>him for
>>>>>> >doing it, or because they did but they're simply not around in
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> >situation and the kid doesn't think he's likely to get in trouble
>>>>>>for
>>>>>> >picking his nose. A third possibility is that he is motivated to
>>>>>>not
>>>>>> >pick his nose, but he's just spaced out and doesn't realize he's
>>>>>>doing
>>>>>> >it, or he has a bad nasal itch and feels compelled to scratch
>>>>>>inside
>>>>>> >his nose to relieve it, etc. The point is that mere knowledge of
>>>>>> >etiquette isn't enough-people have to be motivated (ideally,
>>>>>> >self-motivated) to do what's appropriate. There are some
>>>>>>behaviors
>>>>>> >commonly seen in blind people-known as "blindisms"-that can
>>>>>>become so
>>>>>> >habitually ingrained that even when people become motivated to
>>>>>>stop
>>>>>> >they still have difficulty doing it. Eye-poking is an example
>>>>>>of a
>>>>>> >behavior that most people engaging in it know full well that it's
>>>>>> >unattractive (and bad for their eyes), and often people are
>>>>>>motivated
>>>>>> >to stop, but some have a very hard time completely eliminating
>>>>>>it.
>>>>>> >(Speaking from personal experience here, but also from
>>>>>>conversations
>>>>>> >with teenagers and adults who have genuinely struggled to stop
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> >still find themselves occasionally poking their eyes). To give a
>>>>>> >different example, I think the vast majority of adults know about
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> >negative consequences of being chronically late for things, but
>>>>>>there
>>>>>> >are just some people who are always late-maybe they just don't
>>>>>>care,
>>>>>> >or maybe they do but just haven't figured out how to organize
>>>>>>their
>>>>>> >time so they're not late, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >That said, I do think parents and teachers can help kids improve
>>>>>>their
>>>>>> >social etiquette-not only by teaching what's appropriate
>>>>>>(knowledge),
>>>>>> >but by instilling motivation. Blind kids may be less motivated
>>>>>>than
>>>>>> >sighted kids to comply with social expectations either because
>>>>>>they've
>>>>>> >been held to lower standards by adults or because they don't see
>>>>>>other
>>>>>> >people's negative reactions to their behavior. So I think the
>>>>>>emphasis
>>>>>> >should be on teaching blind kids and teens to truly care about
>>>>>> >conducting themselves well in public, adapting to different
>>>>>>social
>>>>>> >situations and building connections with others-rather than just
>>>>>> >telling them to do or not do certain things. Giving rewards for
>>>>>>good
>>>>>> >behavior and punishments for bad is motivating to an extent, but
>>>>>> >eventually kids need to be motivated regardless of who's around
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> >observe their actions. Ideally they will learn through
>>>>>>experience that
>>>>>> >following social norms and initiating connections with others
>>>>>>makes
>>>>>> >them happier and helps them to reach their goals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >So how do we do this? Any ideas?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> >nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>os%40maine..edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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