[nabs-l] traveling abroad advice

[Beth]

I think you should just go.  Why bother with compliance and stuff?
Why bother with liability?  FSU would be very happy to let me go to
London to studyabroad.  I don't think I would haveany troble.
Everybod here is really adamant that I be as independent as possible.
But just for kicks, I'd bring a friend because I am a woman, and I
don't want toget raped and possibly haveto go through the laws that
the country has regarding rape.  The good new is you're not going to
Saudi Arabia, where a blind woman was put in jail for premarital sex
since she couldn't identify her rapist.  Sad.
Beth

On 4/25/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> hey all,
> I agree with the point of not bringing my mother on this trip to the EU.
> but, its not because I desired it or because I wanted to bring her on the
> trip because I want to act like a total dependent person, but what really
> annoys me is that my school puts on the policy issues of liability and
> stuff.
> another thing is that the dean called the compliance office to work out the
> legal plan for my mom to go but it seems like they are not going to approve
> it.
> but I am trying to fight for this, but the school requires me to have
> someone on the trip regardless if you are very independent or not, because
> of the stupid rules imposed by the compliance office on people with
> disabilities services.
> I think that my school should easy up here and be more flexible.
> what do you all think?
>
> Thank you very much.
> I rely need help concerning this since time is running out and I need
> deposits in as soon as possible.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:00 PM
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>   2. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>   3. Why the NABS should pursue its own employment seminars (Jim Reed)
>>   4. studying abroad advise (priscilla)
>>   5. From A Student In Michigan (Elizabeth)
>>   6. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (jonte)
>>   7. Re: studying abroad advise (Mary Fernandez)
>>   8. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (anna parker)
>>   9. Re: From A Student In Michigan (anna parker)
>>  10. Re: Webcasting the NFB national convention career seminar.
>>      Who wants to help? (Tai Blas)
>>  11. Re: studying abroad advise (Jason Mandarino)
>>  12. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>  13. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>  14. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>  15. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>  16. GRE Material (Domonique Lawless)
>>  17. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question?
>>      (Haben Girma)
>>  18. White Cane Program (Wilson, Joanne)
>>  19. Re: studying abroad advise (Haben Girma)
>>  20. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question? (Jedi)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:59:44 -0400
>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <97844DEBCC9F43FFBEE8FA3C98F28994 at Ashley>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars for
>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross the
>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear being
>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.  Perhaps
>> you
>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you saying
>> you
>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>> risk
>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>> cannot
>> hear.
>>
>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be noise
>> on
>> the car to hear it.
>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I cannot
>> be
>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>
>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>> will
>> fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working on this.
>> We
>> are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on this one, that
>> silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>> Ashley
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>> might
>> pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other hand,
>> there
>> is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on forign
>> oil,
>> and enviromental damage.
>>
>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the support
>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great leap
>> in
>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development, it
>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>> impact
>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more importiant
>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>> dependence
>> of forign oil.
>>
>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>> of
>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit, you
>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>> collapes.
>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering it.
>>
>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>> changing
>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the era
>> of
>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>
>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of societal
>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>> decline.
>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>> refuse to adapt.
>>
>> Well thats my two cents
>> Jim
>>
>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>> nabs-l:
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>> signature
>> database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:07:38 -0400
>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <F7C2FBB3A46A45ADAE6949F6ABAE0860 at Ashley>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Jont,
>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it will
>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>> wear
>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears off
>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>
>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is still
>>
>> a
>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>
>>
>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car? I
>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>> Jonte
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states that
>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something that
>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Robby
>>>
>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>> dependence
>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>
>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this
>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>
>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially be
>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy
>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>> Detroit,
>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>> hindering it.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>> in
>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>> methodologies?
>>>>
>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>> societal
>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>> because
>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Spangler
>>> The University of Toledo
>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>
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>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Why the NABS should pursue its own employment
>> seminars
>> To: NABS mail list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <720742.14610.qm at web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> NABS board and officers,
>>
>> I strongly urge the NABS to pursue its own efforts towards providing job
>> training/readyness. Meaningful employment counters dependence, and
>> successful employment counters stereotypes.
>>
>> I think that for students, there would be an inherent advantage value
>> associated with attending a seperate NABS produced employment seminar that
>>
>> could possibly not be realized at the national convention level. For
>> example, I've never been the shy, quiet type. in class, if I don't know an
>>
>> answer, I will ask the question, regardless of how stupid I may sound, and
>>
>> I wont give a damn what anyone thinks. But, on the other hand, not all
>> students are like me; many wont ask a question to save their life. If
>> they wont ask a question in a classroom, what are the chances they will
>> ask a question in a crowded national convention seminar that is full of
>> older people, proffessionals, and strangers?
>>
>> Additionally, as students, we may not be up to par with the job skills and
>>
>> knowledge of an older, proffessional crowd. Maybe, for example,? some of
>> us (like me) may just be begining to accept our blindness, thus have never
>>
>> looked for a job as a blind person before, and as a result, the
>> education/training needs to start at the most basic level.
>>
>> I could list many more reasons and examples as to why the NABS should host
>>
>> its own job training workshops, but I think I've made my point.
>>
>> ?I'm not suggesting that we compete with the national convention
>> efforts,we could do it anytime between September and March, and not
>> compete directly with the convention. And, with the technology that is
>> availiable, these efforts could be entirely web based, or if there is a
>> NABS convention, that would be a good time to. I bet this is the type of
>> project the Imagination Fund would jump all over.
>>
>> I do think this idea is worth pursuing, and I intend to continue to do so.
>>
>> Please concider supporting this proposal. Also, for everyone reading this
>> on the list, make sure you let our leaders know what you want and need;
>> they are not mind readers. If the NABS board and its officers get enough
>> phone calls and emails in favor of an idea, they will hear the call, and I
>>
>> have faith that they will respond to the needs of their consituants, and
>> to the needs of their voters...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:34:14 -0400
>> From: "priscilla" <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <BAY105-DS591589C1B088A83878496BA720 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>
>> Dear all listers,
>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because of
>>
>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>> with me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium, and
>>
>> Brussels.
>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for me
>>
>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel with
>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>> never happened.
>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I mentioned
>>
>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need to
>>
>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>> the fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained to
>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which was
>>
>> pretty sad.
>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation and
>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad because
>>
>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>> me but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go because
>>
>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on mom
>>
>> as a last resort.
>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school to
>>
>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from work
>> that are a week's worth or more.
>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>> because I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>> willing to give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>
>> get moor information because I would like to go too."
>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>> times for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get used
>>
>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>> being with me all the time.
>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip, but
>>
>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for support.
>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless they
>>
>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing up
>>
>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>
>> Thank you very much
>>
>> Good day,
>>
>> Priscilla
>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>> to travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>> to learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>> tutoring for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>
>> projects which I need help in.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:44:34 -0400
>> From: Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <COL118-W4662D63EA588857C8DA448BA720 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> Hello List,
>>
>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list, but I
>>
>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list from
>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not an
>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>> college student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>
>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions within
>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact person
>> for anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>> answering any questions you might have about what resources might be
>> available in our state.
>>
>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning of
>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes are
>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be of
>>
>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>> please feel free to contact me off list.
>>
>> Elizabeth
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:49:18 -0500
>> From: jonte <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <49f2332e.07045a0a.0581.ffff8a04 at mx.google.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> Maybe there are numerous problems with putting a mechanism in the cane
>> that would detect a hybrid car.
>> I'll concede to that.  However, if it ever were to happen, I would not
>> throw a pity fest about the cost of the cane if a mechanism has been
>> developed that could save my life.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:07 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>
>> Jont,
>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it will
>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>> wear
>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears off
>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>
>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is still
>>
>> a
>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>
>>
>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car? I
>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>> Jonte
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states that
>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something that
>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Robby
>>>
>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>> dependence
>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>
>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this
>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>
>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially be
>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy
>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>> Detroit,
>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>> hindering it.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>> in
>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>> methodologies?
>>>>
>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>> societal
>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>> because
>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Spangler
>>> The University of Toledo
>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:59:23 -0400
>> From: Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <fba03a170904241459o5f37d6a2k793691e7e85d5748 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hi Priscilla. How about hiring a student that is already going on the
>> trip? I am going to Paris this summer, and the school is hiring two
>> students, who are in the program, and who want to work with me, to do
>> it. Basically, if I need to go shopping, and really don't want to go
>> alone, I can just arrange something with them to accompany me. One of
>> them is my friend, but again, this is not a matter where you can rely
>> on friends. Studying abroad is expensive, and hard  not just for us.
>> This is also quite a reasonable accomodation, since it's comparable to
>> hiring a reader or something along those lines.
>> So thinkabout it.
>> Mary
>>
>> On 4/24/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear all listers,
>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>> of
>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>> with
>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>> and
>>> Brussels.
>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>> me
>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel with
>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>> never happened.
>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>> mentioned
>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>> to
>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>> the
>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained to
>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>> was
>>> pretty sad.
>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation and
>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>> because
>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>> me
>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>> because
>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>> mom
>>> as a last resort.
>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>> to
>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from work
>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>> because
>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>> to
>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>> times
>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>> used
>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>> being with me all the time.
>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>> but
>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>> support.
>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>> they
>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>> up
>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much
>>>
>>> Good day,
>>>
>>> Priscilla
>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>> to
>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>> tutoring
>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>> projects
>>> which I need help in.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mary Fernandez
>> Emory University 2012
>> P.O. Box 123056
>> Atlanta Ga.
>> 30322
>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>> President Barack Obama
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:05 -0500
>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <cfb22e3a0904241513k1ee5e356tdc5f0f5308e1718e at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> i totally agree with what your saying, i am one of those blind people who
>> can also drive but id like to see some kind of noise in the cars because i
>> do tavel with out a car a lot of the time and it can be scary enough
>> crossing busy streets with out the fear of not hearing the cars.. so i
>> strongly believe something needs to be done and something needs to be done
>> now
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ashley Bramlett
>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jim,
>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars for
>>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross the
>>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear
>>> being
>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.  Perhaps
>>> you
>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you saying
>>> you
>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>>> risk
>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>> cannot
>>> hear.
>>>
>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be noise
>>> on
>>> the car to hear it.
>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I cannot
>>> be
>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>
>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>> will fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working on
>>> this.  We are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on this
>>> one, that silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>> hand,
>>> there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on
>>> forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>
>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>> support
>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great leap
>>>
>>> in
>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development,
>>> it
>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>> impact
>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>> importiant
>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>> dependence
>>> of forign oil.
>>>
>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>>> of
>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit, you
>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>> collapes.
>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering it.
>>>
>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>> changing
>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the era
>>> of
>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>
>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of societal
>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>> decline.
>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>
>>> Well thats my two cents
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:29:55 -0500
>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <cfb22e3a0904241529u3fb1d872s37a63173008b03ba at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> hey Elizabeth
>>       my name is anna parker, im from mi, im on the student boared if youd
>> like to get back involled let me know, were having a meeting this coming
>> sunday.. we would love to have you. get back to me
>> Anna
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list, but
>>> I
>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list from
>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not an
>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>> college
>>> student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>
>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions within
>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact person
>>> for
>>> anything related to the upcoming national convention including answering
>>> any
>>> questions you might have about what resources might be available in our
>>> state.
>>>
>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning of
>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes are
>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be
>>> of
>>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>>> please
>>> feel free to contact me off list.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>
>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:50 -0500
>> From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>> seminar. Who wants to help?
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <000001c9c52e$6bada780$4308f680$@com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Mr. Will Schwatka usually takes care of recording needs for the
>> convention.
>> He has recorded NABS events in the past and may be able to let NABS  use
>> his
>> equipment. contact him at the national center.
>> Tai Blas
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:50 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>> seminar.
>> Who wants to help?
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Sorry about the last message--I had slightly misinterpreted this
>> thread and thought we were talking about hosting our own career
>> seminar. (It's been a long week!)
>>
>> Before we spend any money or make any webcasting arrangements, we need
>> to talk to the people in charge of streaming the national convention
>> general sessions. I am not sure who that would be but Mrs. Jernigan,
>> who is in charge of all convention arrangements, can point us in the
>> right direction, and she should be made aware of these plans.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 4/24/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Jim and all,
>>>
>>> My understanding is that there is already going to be a general
>>> employment seminar at the convention on Friday, July 3. At least
>>> that's what's happened in past years. NABS isn't going to  compete
>>> with this annual career seminar, although we can certainly talk about
>>> hosting a  job-related podcast or seminar during a different part of
>>> the year.
>>>
>>> I believe the Affiliate Action department will also be hosting an
>>> advocacy seminar sometime during convention. Again, I haven't seen the
>>> agenda for this year, but am basing this on tradition from the seven
>>> other national conventions I've attended thus far.
>>>
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> First Vice-President, NABS
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I have had little experience but would be happy to run the sound board.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>> Several things need to happen to make the NFB national convention
>>>>> career
>>>>> seminar available to all on the web. To begin with, you need to
>>>>> vollenter
>>>>> to
>>>>> help. I may be going to the convention (pending a job interview
>>>>> tomarrow),
>>>>> if I go, I will be willing to do my part. But for now, I can get the
>>>>> ball
>>>>> rolling. If you are interested in helping out with some or all of the
>>>>> following task, please email me OFF LIST (I get the NABS list in digest
>>>>> format, so its better to meail be directly)
>>>>>
>>>>> First, we need to find the equipment.
>>>>>    1  Does anybody have, or have access to,  high-end A/V recording
>>>>> equipment?
>>>>>    2.  If not, then the NFB/NABS needs to rent, or otherwize provide
>>>>> the
>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>           1. NABS board members, what needs to happen to make those
>>>>> funda
>>>>> avaliable?
>>>>>           2. The easiest thing would be to rent it in Detroit. We need
>>>>> to
>>>>> find out where.
>>>>>           3. And we need to arainge for someone to pick-up and drop-off
>>>>> the
>>>>> gear.
>>>>>           4. Perhaps the local college or high school A/V clubs would
>>>>> be
>>>>> willing to allow us
>>>>>              to borrow their gear, or maybe even take on
>>>>> recording/production as a project.
>>>>>           5. It may be worth while to contact the MI affiliate, or the
>>>>> Detroit chapter to find local
>>>>>              resources. Any Michigan students on the list?
>>>>>    3.  Due to compatability issues, we need to know the specs of the
>>>>> P.A.
>>>>> system that
>>>>>         will be used in Detroit. Can anyone find that info?
>>>>>
>>>>> Next we need to focus on personell
>>>>>     1. Depending on the lenght of the seminar, we may need several
>>>>> people
>>>>> willing to take
>>>>>         turn running the camera. Who wants to take on recording duties?
>>>>>      2. Depending on the equipment, we may need people running sound
>>>>> boards
>>>>> or what
>>>>>         not.
>>>>>      3. Post-convention, we need someone to edit the raw footage
>>>>>      4. Then we need to get it on the web. (Joe?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, we need to contact the speaker
>>>>>      1. It would be nice to find out her presentation plans so we can
>>>>> plan
>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>       2. It would be nice to post her slide shows or other A/V material
>>>>> along with the video.
>>>>>       3. We need copies of any handouts, so that they can be scanned
>>>>> and
>>>>> upoaded.
>>>>>       4. To protect all of us, we need to secure written (signed, and
>>>>> dated) permission from
>>>>>           the speaker to record and post her presentation and materials
>>>>> on
>>>>> the web. I know
>>>>>          Joe mentioned that she already gave permission, but I wont
>>>>> take
>>>>> further action until I
>>>>>          see a signed document. As President Ronald Regan said, "trust,
>>>>> but
>>>>> verify."
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope to hear from you guys,
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
>> m
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:28 -0400
>> From: "Jason Mandarino" <blind.subscriber at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAADSA47abc95Akm8BjFP8CtFChgsAEAAAAPXsx1lYL5BIsZ4r9D2g2ykBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the option
>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so to
>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a legal
>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the education
>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>> blast.
>>
>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be a
>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>> your
>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>> responsibility.
>>
>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>> services
>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is running
>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>> can
>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>
>> Just some ideas.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Mandarino
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of priscilla
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>
>> Dear all listers,
>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because of
>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>> with
>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium, and
>> Brussels.
>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for me
>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel with
>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>> never happened.
>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I mentioned
>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need to
>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>> the
>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained to
>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which was
>> pretty sad.
>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation and
>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad because
>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>> me
>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go because
>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on mom
>> as a last resort.
>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school to
>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from work
>> that are a week's worth or more.
>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>> because
>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing to
>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>> information because I would like to go too."
>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>> times
>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get used
>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>> being with me all the time.
>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip, but
>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for support.
>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless they
>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing up
>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>
>> Thank you very much
>>
>> Good day,
>>
>> Priscilla
>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>> to
>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get tutoring
>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for projects
>> which I need help in.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>> mail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:10:31 -0400
>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <4383d01d0904241710h7716ec3ew2103d33b65709b27 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>> not that.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the option
>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so to
>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a legal
>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the education
>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>> blast.
>>>
>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be a
>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>> your
>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>> responsibility.
>>>
>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>> services
>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is running
>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>> can
>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>
>>> Just some ideas.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mandarino
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of priscilla
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>> Dear all listers,
>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>> of
>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>> with
>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>> and
>>> Brussels.
>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>> me
>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel with
>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>> never happened.
>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>> mentioned
>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>> to
>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>> the
>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained to
>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>> was
>>> pretty sad.
>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation and
>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>> because
>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>> me
>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>> because
>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>> mom
>>> as a last resort.
>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>> to
>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from work
>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>> because
>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>> to
>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>> times
>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>> used
>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>> being with me all the time.
>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>> but
>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>> support.
>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>> they
>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>> up
>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much
>>>
>>> Good day,
>>>
>>> Priscilla
>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>> to
>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>> tutoring
>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>> projects
>>> which I need help in.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>> mail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:09:50 -0400
>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <002901c9c542$88faeff0$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.  My
>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.  I
>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but nobody
>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being blind
>> or,
>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a younger
>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving him a
>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I know
>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>> international,
>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>
>> Serena
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>
>>
>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>> not that.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the option
>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>> to
>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>> legal
>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the education
>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>> blast.
>>>>
>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be a
>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>> your
>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>> responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>> services
>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>> running
>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>> can
>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>
>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Mandarino
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of priscilla
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>> of
>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>> with
>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>> and
>>>> Brussels.
>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>> me
>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>> with
>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>> never happened.
>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>> mentioned
>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>> to
>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>>> the
>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>> to
>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>> was
>>>> pretty sad.
>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>> and
>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>> because
>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>>> me
>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>> because
>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>> mom
>>>> as a last resort.
>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>> to
>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>> work
>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>> because
>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>> to
>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>> times
>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>> used
>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>> but
>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>> support.
>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>> they
>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>> up
>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>>> to
>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>> tutoring
>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>> projects
>>>> which I need help in.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>> mail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 14
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:31:04 -0400
>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <4383d01d0904241831x783c77d5t6e8c1e197ef4635 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.  My
>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.  I
>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but nobody
>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being blind
>>> or,
>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>> younger
>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving him
>>> a
>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>> know
>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>> international,
>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>
>>> Serena
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>>
>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>> not that.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>> option
>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>> to
>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>> legal
>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>> education
>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>> blast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>> a
>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>> your
>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>> services
>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>> running
>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>>> can
>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>>> of
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with
>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>>> me
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>> help
>>>>> me
>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because
>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>> moor
>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times
>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>>> up
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>> how
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>> projects
>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 15
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:23:57 -0400
>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <001701c9c54c$e3aecd40$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me any
>> differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who went
>> with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found anyone else
>> to
>> go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my sighted classmates
>> would want to help me out with the trip just cuz they were my friends or
>> acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>>
>> Serena
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>
>>
>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>> My
>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>> I
>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>> nobody
>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being blind
>>>> or,
>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>> younger
>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving him
>>>> a
>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>> know
>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>> international,
>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>
>>>> Serena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>> not that.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>> option
>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>> study
>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>> legal
>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>> education
>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>>> mom
>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>> moor
>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>> signing
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 16
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:53:46 -0500
>> From: Domonique Lawless <dlawless86 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Material
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <423e6e460904241953v11cb72e8v7de52a9b0c8800d5 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> I am going to take the GRE in the Fall and was wondering what
>> accessable study materials were out there, and what you guys have done
>> to prepare. If you could offer any advice or can point me in the right
>> direction I would greatly appreciate it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Domonique Lawless
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 17
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:31:39 -0700
>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>> question?
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <49F2841B.3020405 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled persons"
>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it would
>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term "persons
>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>
>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>
>> Haben
>>
>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in most
>>> of
>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>> persons
>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>> disability
>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a particular
>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem is
>>>
>>> in
>>> me.
>>>
>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>> think
>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>> are
>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end up
>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>
>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of Canada's
>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really can't
>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time I
>>> say
>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>> disability.
>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>> only
>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example, there
>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.  When
>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>> this
>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was that
>>> the
>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>> Far
>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things to be
>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>> special
>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in the
>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting, and
>>> it
>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>> disability
>>> differently.
>>>
>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>> disability,
>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>> anyway
>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it, and
>>> for
>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't think
>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>> question?
>>>
>>>
>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language so
>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>
>>> Haben
>>>
>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel guilty
>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist with
>>>>
>>> this
>>>
>>>> topic.
>>>>
>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.  What
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that blindness
>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot because
>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>> blindness
>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through social
>>>> factors.
>>>>
>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we seem
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>> blindness.
>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated if
>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>
>>> short,
>>>
>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>
>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my time
>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather than
>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>
>>> Canadians.
>>>
>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the challenges
>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's possible
>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust my
>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living in
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world where
>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>
>>> viewed
>>>
>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world to
>>>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>
>>> training
>>>
>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind people
>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.  I
>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>
>>> experiments
>>>
>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>> blind?
>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>>
>>> we'll
>>>
>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>
>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>
>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments, or
>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability is
>>>> not
>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces, but
>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them more
>>>>
>>> than
>>>
>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to possess
>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain skin
>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and significant
>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other skin
>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to possess
>>>> the
>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>> cases,
>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>> result
>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.  Here's
>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marc,
>>>>
>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>> physical
>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument about
>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest with
>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day out.
>>>>
>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>
>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup
>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number
>>>> of
>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>> literary
>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>
>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>
>>> question?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>>
>>> which,
>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can persuade
>>>>>
>>> some
>>>
>>>>> of you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The distinction
>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and is
>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>> codified
>>>>> in
>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>> trait
>>>>> or
>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve could
>>>>> be
>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>> meaningless
>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>> contexts,
>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>> imposed
>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>>
>>> building.
>>>
>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working, many
>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>> than
>>>>> me
>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the fifteen
>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>> respect
>>>>> to
>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put elevators
>>>>> in
>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door openers,
>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people in
>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would not
>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles that
>>>>>
>>> make
>>>
>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All of
>>>>> these
>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my blindness.
>>>>> My
>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan had
>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a while
>>>>> since
>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>>
>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>> that's
>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.  They
>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>>
>>> disability.
>>>
>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the law
>>>>> were
>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>> disabled
>>>>> in
>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are available,
>>>>> then
>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is yet
>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only put
>>>>> it
>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>> quotation
>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to support
>>>>> the
>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>>
>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>> problem
>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a blind
>>>>> person
>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>> physical
>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>> eye
>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and lack
>>>>> of
>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of the
>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical nuisance
>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do certain
>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>> students,
>>>>> we
>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>>>
>>> major
>>>
>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>>>
>>> blind
>>>
>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize my
>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>> attitude,
>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>
>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>
>>>> ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>> ca
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 18
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:07 -0500
>> From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org> (by way of David Andrews
>> <dandrews at visi.com>)
>> Subject: [nabs-l] White Cane Program
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Message-ID: <auto-000095656176 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>>
>>
>> Free White Cane Message
>>
>>      If you have received a cane through our Free White Cane
>> Program, then this message is for you!  We are preparing outreach
>> materials, and would like a few quotes describing how you felt about
>> getting your free cane.  Whether this was your first cane, or if
>> you're an experienced cane user, we want to hear what you have to
>> say.  For many, the White Cane is a symbol of independence,
>> self-sufficiency, and freedom.  Please take a moment to tell us in a
>> paragraph or two what the cane you received through the Free White
>> Cane Program means to you.  Please e-mail your comments to
>> <mailto:jwilson at nfb.org>jwilson at nfb.org.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joanne Wilson
>> Affiliate Action Executive Director
>> 410-659-9314 extension 2335
>> jwilson at nfb.org
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> Name: Free White Cane Message.doc
>> Type: application/msword
>> Size: 30208 bytes
>> Desc: not available
>> URL:
>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20090424/63ed9c0f/attachment-0001.doc>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 19
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:10:38 -0700
>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Message-ID: <49F28D3E.2040305 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>> generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>> case that people from other countries, especially from the Third World,
>> have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are usually
>> taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes in
>> the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>> and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>> sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just the
>> tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more willing
>> to help.
>>
>> Haben
>>
>> Serena wrote:
>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>>> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my
>>> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>>>
>>> Serena
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>>
>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>>>> acquaintances.  My
>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>> Adventure.  I
>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>> blind or,
>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>> younger
>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>> him a
>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>>>> I know
>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>> international,
>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>>>>>> them, so to
>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>>>>>>> a legal
>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>>>>>> will be a
>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>>>>>> concerns for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>>>> travel with
>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>> explained to
>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>> situation and
>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>>>>>> to help
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>>>>>>> I am.
>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>>>>>> depend on
>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>>>> from work
>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>>>>>> get moor
>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>>>>>> to her
>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>>>>>> deposit the
>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>>>> learn how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>> excited to
>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 20
>> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:15:41 -0400
>> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>> question?
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Message-ID: <20090425061541.22144.74541 at web2.serotek.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>>
>> Well, I look at it this way. If we can indeed possess love or
>> intelligence, we don't say "she has love." or "She has intelligence."
>> Or, we don't say "A person with intelligence" or "A person with love."
>> we say a loving person or an intelligent person. I think Jernigan had a
>> lot going for him when he said that we only talk symantics with phrases
>> that have a negative connotation or that are considered negative or
>> stigmatizing characteristics. Let's take disability. Jernigan would
>> argue that "disabled person" is effectively the same as "person with a
>> disability" except that "disabled person" is less linguisticly awkward
>> when used multiple times in a document or in speech. He would also
>> argue that "person with a disability" might actually increase the
>> stigma because we're effectively saying that the disability part is
>> something we're not supposed to bring any attention to. Jernigan wrote
>> an article in 1993 called "Euphemisms Excoriated." It's an interesting
>> article. As for me, i just say I'm a blind person and let people
>> qualify that as they may. If they take the time to get to know me, they
>> will undoubtedly find that whatever negative assumptions they have are
>> dead wrong.
>> Original message:
>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>
>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled persons"
>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it would
>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term "persons
>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>
>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>
>>> Haben
>>
>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in most
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>> persons
>>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>> disability
>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>> particular
>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem
>>>> is in
>>>> me.
>>
>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>> think
>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>> are
>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end up
>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>
>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>> Canada's
>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really can't
>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time I
>>>> say
>>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>> disability.
>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>> only
>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example,
>>>> there
>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.  When
>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>> this
>>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was that
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>> Far
>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things to
>>>> be
>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>>> special
>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in the
>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting, and
>>>> it
>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>> disability
>>>> differently.
>>
>>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>>> disability,
>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>> anyway
>>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it, and
>>>> for
>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>> think
>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>
>>>> Best,
>>
>>>> Marc
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>> question?
>>
>>
>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language so
>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>
>>>> Haben
>>
>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>
>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel guilty
>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist with
>>
>>>> this
>>
>>>>> topic.
>>
>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>> What I
>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that
>>>>> blindness
>>
>>>> is
>>
>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot because
>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>>> blindness
>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through social
>>>>> factors.
>>
>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we
>>>>> seem
>>
>>>> to
>>
>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>> blindness.
>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated if
>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>
>>>> short,
>>
>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>
>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>> time
>>
>>>> and
>>
>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather than
>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>
>>>> Canadians.
>>
>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>> challenges
>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's possible
>>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust my
>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living
>>>>> in a
>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world where
>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>
>>>> viewed
>>
>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world
>>>>> to
>>
>>>> be
>>
>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>
>>>> training
>>
>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind people
>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.  I
>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>
>>>> experiments
>>
>>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>> blind?
>>
>>>> I
>>
>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>
>>>> we'll
>>
>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>
>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>
>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments, or
>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability is
>>>>> not
>>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>> but
>>
>>>> you
>>
>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them more
>>
>>>> than
>>
>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>> possess
>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain skin
>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and significant
>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other skin
>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to possess
>>>>> the
>>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>> cases,
>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>> result
>>
>>>> in
>>
>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>> Here's
>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>
>>>>> Best,
>>
>>>>> Marc
>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>
>>
>>>>> Marc,
>>
>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>> physical
>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>> about
>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>
>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest with
>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day out.
>>
>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>
>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>> pickup
>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number
>>>>> of
>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>> literary
>>>>> works in Braille.
>>
>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>
>>>> question?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>
>>>> which,
>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can persuade
>>
>>>> some
>>
>>>>>> of you.
>>
>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The distinction
>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and is
>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>>> codified
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>
>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>>> trait
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve could
>>>>>>
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>
>>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>
>>>> building.
>>
>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the fifteen
>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>> respect
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put elevators
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door openers,
>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>
>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles that
>>
>>>> make
>>
>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my blindness.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>> had
>>
>>>> in
>>
>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a while
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> I read his work.
>>
>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.  They
>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>
>>>> disability.
>>
>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>> law
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>> available,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is yet
>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>
>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only put
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>
>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>> problem
>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a blind
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>> physical
>>>>>> nuisance.
>>
>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>> eye
>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and lack
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical nuisance
>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>
>>
>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>
>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do certain
>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>> students,
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>
>>>> major
>>
>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>
>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>
>>>> blind
>>
>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>
>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>
>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>
>>>>>> ca
>>
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>
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>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>
>>>>> ca
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>
>>>> nabs-l:
>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>> ca
>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>> --
>> REspectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>> **************************************
>>
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