[nabs-l] traveling abroad advice

[Ashley Bramlett]

Beth,
Read the message carefully.  She has to
deal with liability because of the compliance office.
This is being imposed on her.  I think this is discrimination.  Beth, she 
cannot just go on the trip due to the rules she is under.  They are 
requiring her to be assisted.  I think this is way wrong.
Just because she is blind does not make her more of a liability.

Its nice FSU is not like that raising irrational concerns about liability. 
Such concerns are based on the false notion that the blind cannot travel 
safely and are more of a safety hazard than other travelers.
Sadly these problems about liability are still around in 2009.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] traveling abroad advice


>I think you should just go.  Why bother with compliance and stuff?
> Why bother with liability?  FSU would be very happy to let me go to
> London to studyabroad.  I don't think I would haveany troble.
> Everybod here is really adamant that I be as independent as possible.
> But just for kicks, I'd bring a friend because I am a woman, and I
> don't want toget raped and possibly haveto go through the laws that
> the country has regarding rape.  The good new is you're not going to
> Saudi Arabia, where a blind woman was put in jail for premarital sex
> since she couldn't identify her rapist.  Sad.
> Beth
>
> On 4/25/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> hey all,
>> I agree with the point of not bringing my mother on this trip to the EU.
>> but, its not because I desired it or because I wanted to bring her on the
>> trip because I want to act like a total dependent person, but what really
>> annoys me is that my school puts on the policy issues of liability and
>> stuff.
>> another thing is that the dean called the compliance office to work out 
>> the
>> legal plan for my mom to go but it seems like they are not going to 
>> approve
>> it.
>> but I am trying to fight for this, but the school requires me to have
>> someone on the trip regardless if you are very independent or not, 
>> because
>> of the stupid rules imposed by the compliance office on people with
>> disabilities services.
>> I think that my school should easy up here and be more flexible.
>> what do you all think?
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>> I rely need help concerning this since time is running out and I need
>> deposits in as soon as possible.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:00 PM
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>>   2. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>>   3. Why the NABS should pursue its own employment seminars (Jim Reed)
>>>   4. studying abroad advise (priscilla)
>>>   5. From A Student In Michigan (Elizabeth)
>>>   6. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (jonte)
>>>   7. Re: studying abroad advise (Mary Fernandez)
>>>   8. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (anna parker)
>>>   9. Re: From A Student In Michigan (anna parker)
>>>  10. Re: Webcasting the NFB national convention career seminar.
>>>      Who wants to help? (Tai Blas)
>>>  11. Re: studying abroad advise (Jason Mandarino)
>>>  12. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>  13. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>  14. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>  15. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>  16. GRE Material (Domonique Lawless)
>>>  17. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question?
>>>      (Haben Girma)
>>>  18. White Cane Program (Wilson, Joanne)
>>>  19. Re: studying abroad advise (Haben Girma)
>>>  20. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question? (Jedi)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:59:44 -0400
>>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <97844DEBCC9F43FFBEE8FA3C98F28994 at Ashley>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> Hi Jim,
>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars 
>>> for
>>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross 
>>> the
>>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear 
>>> being
>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.  Perhaps
>>> you
>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you saying
>>> you
>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>>> risk
>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>> cannot
>>> hear.
>>>
>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be noise
>>> on
>>> the car to hear it.
>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I cannot
>>> be
>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>
>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>> will
>>> fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working on this.
>>> We
>>> are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on this one, 
>>> that
>>> silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>> might
>>> pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other hand,
>>> there
>>> is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on forign
>>> oil,
>>> and enviromental damage.
>>>
>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the 
>>> support
>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great 
>>> leap
>>> in
>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development, 
>>> it
>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>> impact
>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more 
>>> importiant
>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>> dependence
>>> of forign oil.
>>>
>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>>> of
>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit, 
>>> you
>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>> collapes.
>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering 
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>> changing
>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the era
>>> of
>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>
>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of 
>>> societal
>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>> decline.
>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>
>>> Well thats my two cents
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:07:38 -0400
>>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <F7C2FBB3A46A45ADAE6949F6ABAE0860 at Ashley>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> Jont,
>>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it 
>>> will
>>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>>> wear
>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears 
>>> off
>>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>>
>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is 
>>> still
>>>
>>> a
>>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>>
>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car? 
>>>> I
>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>> Jonte
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states that
>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something 
>>>> that
>>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Robby
>>>>
>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>> dependence
>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating 
>>>>> this
>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and 
>>>>> development
>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially 
>>>>> be
>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our 
>>>>> economy
>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>>> in
>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>> societal
>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>> because
>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>> From: Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Why the NABS should pursue its own employment
>>> seminars
>>> To: NABS mail list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <720742.14610.qm at web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>> NABS board and officers,
>>>
>>> I strongly urge the NABS to pursue its own efforts towards providing job
>>> training/readyness. Meaningful employment counters dependence, and
>>> successful employment counters stereotypes.
>>>
>>> I think that for students, there would be an inherent advantage value
>>> associated with attending a seperate NABS produced employment seminar 
>>> that
>>>
>>> could possibly not be realized at the national convention level. For
>>> example, I've never been the shy, quiet type. in class, if I don't know 
>>> an
>>>
>>> answer, I will ask the question, regardless of how stupid I may sound, 
>>> and
>>>
>>> I wont give a damn what anyone thinks. But, on the other hand, not all
>>> students are like me; many wont ask a question to save their life. If
>>> they wont ask a question in a classroom, what are the chances they will
>>> ask a question in a crowded national convention seminar that is full of
>>> older people, proffessionals, and strangers?
>>>
>>> Additionally, as students, we may not be up to par with the job skills 
>>> and
>>>
>>> knowledge of an older, proffessional crowd. Maybe, for example,? some of
>>> us (like me) may just be begining to accept our blindness, thus have 
>>> never
>>>
>>> looked for a job as a blind person before, and as a result, the
>>> education/training needs to start at the most basic level.
>>>
>>> I could list many more reasons and examples as to why the NABS should 
>>> host
>>>
>>> its own job training workshops, but I think I've made my point.
>>>
>>> ?I'm not suggesting that we compete with the national convention
>>> efforts,we could do it anytime between September and March, and not
>>> compete directly with the convention. And, with the technology that is
>>> availiable, these efforts could be entirely web based, or if there is a
>>> NABS convention, that would be a good time to. I bet this is the type of
>>> project the Imagination Fund would jump all over.
>>>
>>> I do think this idea is worth pursuing, and I intend to continue to do 
>>> so.
>>>
>>> Please concider supporting this proposal. Also, for everyone reading 
>>> this
>>> on the list, make sure you let our leaders know what you want and need;
>>> they are not mind readers. If the NABS board and its officers get enough
>>> phone calls and emails in favor of an idea, they will hear the call, and 
>>> I
>>>
>>> have faith that they will respond to the needs of their consituants, and
>>> to the needs of their voters...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?
>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:34:14 -0400
>>> From: "priscilla" <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <BAY105-DS591589C1B088A83878496BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>>
>>> Dear all listers,
>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because 
>>> of
>>>
>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>> with me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium, 
>>> and
>>>
>>> Brussels.
>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for 
>>> me
>>>
>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel 
>>> with
>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>> never happened.
>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I 
>>> mentioned
>>>
>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need 
>>> to
>>>
>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>> the fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained 
>>> to
>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which 
>>> was
>>>
>>> pretty sad.
>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation 
>>> and
>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad 
>>> because
>>>
>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>> me but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I 
>>> am.
>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go 
>>> because
>>>
>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on 
>>> mom
>>>
>>> as a last resort.
>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school 
>>> to
>>>
>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from 
>>> work
>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>> because I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>> willing to give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I 
>>> will
>>>
>>> get moor information because I would like to go too."
>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>> times for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get 
>>> used
>>>
>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>> being with me all the time.
>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip, 
>>> but
>>>
>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for 
>>> support.
>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless 
>>> they
>>>
>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing 
>>> up
>>>
>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much
>>>
>>> Good day,
>>>
>>> Priscilla
>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>> to travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>> to learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>> tutoring for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays 
>>> for
>>>
>>> projects which I need help in.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:44:34 -0400
>>> From: Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <COL118-W4662D63EA588857C8DA448BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list, but 
>>> I
>>>
>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list 
>>> from
>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not 
>>> an
>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>> college student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>
>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions within
>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact person
>>> for anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>>> answering any questions you might have about what resources might be
>>> available in our state.
>>>
>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning 
>>> of
>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes 
>>> are
>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be 
>>> of
>>>
>>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>>> please feel free to contact me off list.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:49:18 -0500
>>> From: jonte <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <49f2332e.07045a0a.0581.ffff8a04 at mx.google.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe there are numerous problems with putting a mechanism in the cane
>>> that would detect a hybrid car.
>>> I'll concede to that.  However, if it ever were to happen, I would not
>>> throw a pity fest about the cost of the cane if a mechanism has been
>>> developed that could save my life.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:07 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>> Jont,
>>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it 
>>> will
>>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>>> wear
>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears 
>>> off
>>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>>
>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is 
>>> still
>>>
>>> a
>>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>
>>>
>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car? 
>>>> I
>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>> Jonte
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states that
>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something 
>>>> that
>>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Robby
>>>>
>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>> dependence
>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating 
>>>>> this
>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and 
>>>>> development
>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially 
>>>>> be
>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our 
>>>>> economy
>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>>> in
>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>> societal
>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>> because
>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:59:23 -0400
>>> From: Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <fba03a170904241459o5f37d6a2k793691e7e85d5748 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Hi Priscilla. How about hiring a student that is already going on the
>>> trip? I am going to Paris this summer, and the school is hiring two
>>> students, who are in the program, and who want to work with me, to do
>>> it. Basically, if I need to go shopping, and really don't want to go
>>> alone, I can just arrange something with them to accompany me. One of
>>> them is my friend, but again, this is not a matter where you can rely
>>> on friends. Studying abroad is expensive, and hard  not just for us.
>>> This is also quite a reasonable accomodation, since it's comparable to
>>> hiring a reader or something along those lines.
>>> So thinkabout it.
>>> Mary
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>> of
>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>> with
>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>> and
>>>> Brussels.
>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>> me
>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel 
>>>> with
>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>> never happened.
>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>> mentioned
>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>> to
>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because 
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained 
>>>> to
>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>> was
>>>> pretty sad.
>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation 
>>>> and
>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>> because
>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to 
>>>> help
>>>> me
>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>> because
>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help 
>>>> can't
>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>> mom
>>>> as a last resort.
>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>> to
>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from 
>>>> work
>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>> because
>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>> to
>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get 
>>>> moor
>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>> times
>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>> used
>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>> but
>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>> support.
>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>> they
>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>> up
>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn 
>>>> how
>>>> to
>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited 
>>>> to
>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>> tutoring
>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>> projects
>>>> which I need help in.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
>>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>>> President Barack Obama
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 8
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:05 -0500
>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <cfb22e3a0904241513k1ee5e356tdc5f0f5308e1718e at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> i totally agree with what your saying, i am one of those blind people 
>>> who
>>> can also drive but id like to see some kind of noise in the cars because 
>>> i
>>> do tavel with out a car a lot of the time and it can be scary enough
>>> crossing busy streets with out the fear of not hearing the cars.. so i
>>> strongly believe something needs to be done and something needs to be 
>>> done
>>> now
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ashley Bramlett
>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars 
>>>> for
>>>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross 
>>>> the
>>>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear
>>>> being
>>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.  Perhaps
>>>> you
>>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you 
>>>> saying
>>>> you
>>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>>>> risk
>>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>>> cannot
>>>> hear.
>>>>
>>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be 
>>>> noise
>>>> on
>>>> the car to hear it.
>>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I 
>>>> cannot
>>>> be
>>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>>
>>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>>> will fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working on
>>>> this.  We are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on 
>>>> this
>>>> one, that silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>> hand,
>>>> there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on
>>>> forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>
>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>> support
>>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great 
>>>> leap
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development,
>>>> it
>>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>>> impact
>>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>>> importiant
>>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>>> dependence
>>>> of forign oil.
>>>>
>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and 
>>>> development
>>>> of
>>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit, 
>>>> you
>>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>> collapes.
>>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering 
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>> changing
>>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the 
>>>> era
>>>> of
>>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>>
>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of 
>>>> societal
>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>> decline.
>>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 9
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:29:55 -0500
>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <cfb22e3a0904241529u3fb1d872s37a63173008b03ba at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> hey Elizabeth
>>>       my name is anna parker, im from mi, im on the student boared if 
>>> youd
>>> like to get back involled let me know, were having a meeting this coming
>>> sunday.. we would love to have you. get back to me
>>> Anna
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello List,
>>>>
>>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list, 
>>>> but
>>>> I
>>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list 
>>>> from
>>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not 
>>>> an
>>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>>> college
>>>> student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>>
>>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions 
>>>> within
>>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact 
>>>> person
>>>> for
>>>> anything related to the upcoming national convention including 
>>>> answering
>>>> any
>>>> questions you might have about what resources might be available in our
>>>> state.
>>>>
>>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning 
>>>> of
>>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes 
>>>> are
>>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be
>>>> of
>>>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>>>> please
>>>> feel free to contact me off list.
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>>
>>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 10
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:50 -0500
>>> From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>> seminar. Who wants to help?
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <000001c9c52e$6bada780$4308f680$@com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Mr. Will Schwatka usually takes care of recording needs for the
>>> convention.
>>> He has recorded NABS events in the past and may be able to let NABS  use
>>> his
>>> equipment. contact him at the national center.
>>> Tai Blas
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Arielle Silverman
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:50 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>> seminar.
>>> Who wants to help?
>>>
>>> Hi again,
>>>
>>> Sorry about the last message--I had slightly misinterpreted this
>>> thread and thought we were talking about hosting our own career
>>> seminar. (It's been a long week!)
>>>
>>> Before we spend any money or make any webcasting arrangements, we need
>>> to talk to the people in charge of streaming the national convention
>>> general sessions. I am not sure who that would be but Mrs. Jernigan,
>>> who is in charge of all convention arrangements, can point us in the
>>> right direction, and she should be made aware of these plans.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Jim and all,
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that there is already going to be a general
>>>> employment seminar at the convention on Friday, July 3. At least
>>>> that's what's happened in past years. NABS isn't going to  compete
>>>> with this annual career seminar, although we can certainly talk about
>>>> hosting a  job-related podcast or seminar during a different part of
>>>> the year.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the Affiliate Action department will also be hosting an
>>>> advocacy seminar sometime during convention. Again, I haven't seen the
>>>> agenda for this year, but am basing this on tradition from the seven
>>>> other national conventions I've attended thus far.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> First Vice-President, NABS
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I have had little experience but would be happy to run the sound 
>>>>> board.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>> Several things need to happen to make the NFB national convention
>>>>>> career
>>>>>> seminar available to all on the web. To begin with, you need to
>>>>>> vollenter
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> help. I may be going to the convention (pending a job interview
>>>>>> tomarrow),
>>>>>> if I go, I will be willing to do my part. But for now, I can get the
>>>>>> ball
>>>>>> rolling. If you are interested in helping out with some or all of the
>>>>>> following task, please email me OFF LIST (I get the NABS list in 
>>>>>> digest
>>>>>> format, so its better to meail be directly)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, we need to find the equipment.
>>>>>>    1  Does anybody have, or have access to,  high-end A/V recording
>>>>>> equipment?
>>>>>>    2.  If not, then the NFB/NABS needs to rent, or otherwize provide
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>>           1. NABS board members, what needs to happen to make those
>>>>>> funda
>>>>>> avaliable?
>>>>>>           2. The easiest thing would be to rent it in Detroit. We 
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> find out where.
>>>>>>           3. And we need to arainge for someone to pick-up and 
>>>>>> drop-off
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> gear.
>>>>>>           4. Perhaps the local college or high school A/V clubs would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> willing to allow us
>>>>>>              to borrow their gear, or maybe even take on
>>>>>> recording/production as a project.
>>>>>>           5. It may be worth while to contact the MI affiliate, or 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Detroit chapter to find local
>>>>>>              resources. Any Michigan students on the list?
>>>>>>    3.  Due to compatability issues, we need to know the specs of the
>>>>>> P.A.
>>>>>> system that
>>>>>>         will be used in Detroit. Can anyone find that info?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next we need to focus on personell
>>>>>>     1. Depending on the lenght of the seminar, we may need several
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> willing to take
>>>>>>         turn running the camera. Who wants to take on recording 
>>>>>> duties?
>>>>>>      2. Depending on the equipment, we may need people running sound
>>>>>> boards
>>>>>> or what
>>>>>>         not.
>>>>>>      3. Post-convention, we need someone to edit the raw footage
>>>>>>      4. Then we need to get it on the web. (Joe?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, we need to contact the speaker
>>>>>>      1. It would be nice to find out her presentation plans so we can
>>>>>> plan
>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>       2. It would be nice to post her slide shows or other A/V 
>>>>>> material
>>>>>> along with the video.
>>>>>>       3. We need copies of any handouts, so that they can be scanned
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> upoaded.
>>>>>>       4. To protect all of us, we need to secure written (signed, and
>>>>>> dated) permission from
>>>>>>           the speaker to record and post her presentation and 
>>>>>> materials
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the web. I know
>>>>>>          Joe mentioned that she already gave permission, but I wont
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> further action until I
>>>>>>          see a signed document. As President Ronald Regan said, 
>>>>>> "trust,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> verify."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope to hear from you guys,
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 11
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:28 -0400
>>> From: "Jason Mandarino" <blind.subscriber at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAADSA47abc95Akm8BjFP8CtFChgsAEAAAAPXsx1lYL5BIsZ4r9D2g2ykBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the option
>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so 
>>> to
>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a 
>>> legal
>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the education
>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>> blast.
>>>
>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be a
>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>> your
>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>> responsibility.
>>>
>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>> services
>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is 
>>> running
>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>> can
>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>
>>> Just some ideas.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mandarino
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of priscilla
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>> Dear all listers,
>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because 
>>> of
>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>> with
>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium, 
>>> and
>>> Brussels.
>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for 
>>> me
>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel 
>>> with
>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>> never happened.
>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I 
>>> mentioned
>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need 
>>> to
>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>> the
>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained 
>>> to
>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which 
>>> was
>>> pretty sad.
>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation 
>>> and
>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad 
>>> because
>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>> me
>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go 
>>> because
>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on 
>>> mom
>>> as a last resort.
>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school 
>>> to
>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from 
>>> work
>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>> because
>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing 
>>> to
>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>> times
>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get 
>>> used
>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>> being with me all the time.
>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip, 
>>> but
>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for 
>>> support.
>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless 
>>> they
>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing 
>>> up
>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much
>>>
>>> Good day,
>>>
>>> Priscilla
>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>> to
>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get 
>>> tutoring
>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for 
>>> projects
>>> which I need help in.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>> mail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 12
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:10:31 -0400
>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <4383d01d0904241710h7716ec3ew2103d33b65709b27 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>> not that.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the 
>>>> option
>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so 
>>>> to
>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a 
>>>> legal
>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the 
>>>> education
>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>> blast.
>>>>
>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be 
>>>> a
>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>> your
>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>> responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>> services
>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is 
>>>> running
>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>> can
>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>
>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Mandarino
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of priscilla
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>> of
>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>> with
>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>> and
>>>> Brussels.
>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>> me
>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel 
>>>> with
>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>> never happened.
>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>> mentioned
>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>> to
>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because 
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained 
>>>> to
>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>> was
>>>> pretty sad.
>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation 
>>>> and
>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>> because
>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to 
>>>> help
>>>> me
>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>> because
>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help 
>>>> can't
>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>> mom
>>>> as a last resort.
>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>> to
>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from 
>>>> work
>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>> because
>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>> to
>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get 
>>>> moor
>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>> times
>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>> used
>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>> but
>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>> support.
>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>> they
>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>> up
>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn 
>>>> how
>>>> to
>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited 
>>>> to
>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>> tutoring
>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>> projects
>>>> which I need help in.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>> mail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 13
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:09:50 -0400
>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <002901c9c542$88faeff0$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances. 
>>> My
>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure. 
>>> I
>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but 
>>> nobody
>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being blind
>>> or,
>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a 
>>> younger
>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving him 
>>> a
>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I 
>>> know
>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>> international,
>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>
>>> Serena
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>>
>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>> not that.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the 
>>>>> option
>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My 
>>>>> study
>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>> to
>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>> legal
>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the 
>>>>> education
>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>> blast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be 
>>>>> a
>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>> your
>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>> services
>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>> running
>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all 
>>>>> my
>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. 
>>>>> They
>>>>> can
>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to 
>>>>> studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out 
>>>>> because
>>>>> of
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with
>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns 
>>>>> for
>>>>> me
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because 
>>>>> it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I 
>>>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does 
>>>>> not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to 
>>>>> help
>>>>> me
>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I 
>>>>> am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help 
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another 
>>>>> school
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because
>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are 
>>>>> willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get 
>>>>> moor
>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times
>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to 
>>>>> her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit 
>>>>> the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are 
>>>>> signing
>>>>> up
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn 
>>>>> how
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited 
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>> projects
>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 14
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:31:04 -0400
>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <4383d01d0904241831x783c77d5t6e8c1e197ef4635 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances. 
>>>> My
>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure. 
>>>> I
>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but 
>>>> nobody
>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being 
>>>> blind
>>>> or,
>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>> younger
>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving 
>>>> him
>>>> a
>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>> know
>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>> international,
>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>
>>>> Serena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>> not that.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>> option
>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My 
>>>>>> study
>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, 
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>> legal
>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>> education
>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years 
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all 
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. 
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to 
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out 
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go 
>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, 
>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I 
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I 
>>>>>> explained
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships 
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I 
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> mom
>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another 
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are 
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>> moor
>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to 
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the 
>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are 
>>>>>> signing
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate 
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 15
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:23:57 -0400
>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <001701c9c54c$e3aecd40$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me any
>>> differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who 
>>> went
>>> with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found anyone 
>>> else
>>> to
>>> go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my sighted 
>>> classmates
>>> would want to help me out with the trip just cuz they were my friends or
>>> acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>>>
>>> Serena
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>
>>>
>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure 
>>>>> that
>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>> My
>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>>> I
>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> or,
>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>> younger
>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving 
>>>>> him
>>>>> a
>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>>> know
>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>> international,
>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, 
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years 
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go 
>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, 
>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times 
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I 
>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, 
>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships 
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my 
>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend 
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 
>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to 
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the 
>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday 
>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving 
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate 
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am 
>>>>>>> excited
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 16
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:53:46 -0500
>>> From: Domonique Lawless <dlawless86 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Material
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <423e6e460904241953v11cb72e8v7de52a9b0c8800d5 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> I am going to take the GRE in the Fall and was wondering what
>>> accessable study materials were out there, and what you guys have done
>>> to prepare. If you could offer any advice or can point me in the right
>>> direction I would greatly appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Domonique Lawless
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 17
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:31:39 -0700
>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>> question?
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <49F2841B.3020405 at aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled persons"
>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it would
>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term "persons
>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>
>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>
>>> Haben
>>>
>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in 
>>>> most
>>>> of
>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>> persons
>>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>> disability
>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a 
>>>> particular
>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem 
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>> think
>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>> are
>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end 
>>>> up
>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>>
>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of 
>>>> Canada's
>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really can't
>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time I
>>>> say
>>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>> disability.
>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>> only
>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example, 
>>>> there
>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.  When
>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>> this
>>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was 
>>>> that
>>>> the
>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>> Far
>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things to 
>>>> be
>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>>> special
>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in the
>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting, and
>>>> it
>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>> disability
>>>> differently.
>>>>
>>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>>> disability,
>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>> anyway
>>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it, and
>>>> for
>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't 
>>>> think
>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language so
>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>>
>>>> Haben
>>>>
>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel 
>>>>> guilty
>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist with
>>>>>
>>>> this
>>>>
>>>>> topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless. 
>>>>> What
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that 
>>>>> blindness
>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot because
>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>>> blindness
>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through social
>>>>> factors.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we 
>>>>> seem
>>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>> blindness.
>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated 
>>>>> if
>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>>
>>>> short,
>>>>
>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my 
>>>>> time
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather than
>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>>
>>>> Canadians.
>>>>
>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the 
>>>>> challenges
>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's possible
>>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust my
>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living 
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world 
>>>>> where
>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>>
>>>> viewed
>>>>
>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world 
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>>
>>>> training
>>>>
>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind people
>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.  I
>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>>
>>>> experiments
>>>>
>>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>> blind?
>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>>>
>>>> we'll
>>>>
>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>>
>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments, or
>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability is
>>>>> not
>>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces, 
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them 
>>>>> more
>>>>>
>>>> than
>>>>
>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to 
>>>>> possess
>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain skin
>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and significant
>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other 
>>>>> skin
>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to possess
>>>>> the
>>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>> cases,
>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>> result
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too. 
>>>>> Here's
>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>> physical
>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument 
>>>>> about
>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest 
>>>>> with
>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>
>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of 
>>>>> pickup
>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number
>>>>> of
>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>> literary
>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>
>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>>>
>>>> which,
>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can persuade
>>>>>>
>>>> some
>>>>
>>>>>> of you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The distinction
>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and is
>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>>> codified
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>>> trait
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve 
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>>>
>>>> building.
>>>>
>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working, 
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the fifteen
>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>> respect
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put 
>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door 
>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles that
>>>>>>
>>>> make
>>>>
>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my blindness.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan 
>>>>>> had
>>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a 
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up. 
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>>>
>>>> disability.
>>>>
>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the 
>>>>>> law
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are 
>>>>>> available,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is yet
>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only 
>>>>>> put
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>> problem
>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a 
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>> physical
>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>> eye
>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and 
>>>>>> lack
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical 
>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do 
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>> students,
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>>>>
>>>> major
>>>>
>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>>>>
>>>> blind
>>>>
>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize 
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>
>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>
>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>> ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 18
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:07 -0500
>>> From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org> (by way of David Andrews
>>> <dandrews at visi.com>)
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] White Cane Program
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Message-ID: <auto-000095656176 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>>
>>> Free White Cane Message
>>>
>>>      If you have received a cane through our Free White Cane
>>> Program, then this message is for you!  We are preparing outreach
>>> materials, and would like a few quotes describing how you felt about
>>> getting your free cane.  Whether this was your first cane, or if
>>> you're an experienced cane user, we want to hear what you have to
>>> say.  For many, the White Cane is a symbol of independence,
>>> self-sufficiency, and freedom.  Please take a moment to tell us in a
>>> paragraph or two what the cane you received through the Free White
>>> Cane Program means to you.  Please e-mail your comments to
>>> <mailto:jwilson at nfb.org>jwilson at nfb.org.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Joanne Wilson
>>> Affiliate Action Executive Director
>>> 410-659-9314 extension 2335
>>> jwilson at nfb.org
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>> Name: Free White Cane Message.doc
>>> Type: application/msword
>>> Size: 30208 bytes
>>> Desc: not available
>>> URL:
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20090424/63ed9c0f/attachment-0001.doc>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 19
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:10:38 -0700
>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Message-ID: <49F28D3E.2040305 at aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>
>>> Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>>> generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>>> case that people from other countries, especially from the Third World,
>>> have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are usually
>>> taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes in
>>> the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>>> and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>>> sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just the
>>> tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more willing
>>> to help.
>>>
>>> Haben
>>>
>>> Serena wrote:
>>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>>> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>>>> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>>> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my
>>>> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>>> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>>>>
>>>> Serena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, 
>>>>>> however,
>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>>>>> acquaintances.  My
>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>>> Adventure.  I
>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>> blind or,
>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>>> younger
>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>> him a
>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>>>>> I know
>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>> international,
>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>>>>>>> them, so to
>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>>>>>>>> a legal
>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>>>>>>> will be a
>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>>>>>>> concerns for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>>>>> travel with
>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in 
>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>> explained to
>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, 
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>> situation and
>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>>>>>>> to help
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>>>>>>>> I am.
>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>>>>>>> depend on
>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>>>>> from work
>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>>>>>>> get moor
>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 
>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to 
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>>>>>>> to her
>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>>>>>>> deposit the
>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday 
>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving 
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>>>>> learn how
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>> excited to
>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 20
>>> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:15:41 -0400
>>> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>> question?
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Message-ID: <20090425061541.22144.74541 at web2.serotek.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>>>
>>> Well, I look at it this way. If we can indeed possess love or
>>> intelligence, we don't say "she has love." or "She has intelligence."
>>> Or, we don't say "A person with intelligence" or "A person with love."
>>> we say a loving person or an intelligent person. I think Jernigan had a
>>> lot going for him when he said that we only talk symantics with phrases
>>> that have a negative connotation or that are considered negative or
>>> stigmatizing characteristics. Let's take disability. Jernigan would
>>> argue that "disabled person" is effectively the same as "person with a
>>> disability" except that "disabled person" is less linguisticly awkward
>>> when used multiple times in a document or in speech. He would also
>>> argue that "person with a disability" might actually increase the
>>> stigma because we're effectively saying that the disability part is
>>> something we're not supposed to bring any attention to. Jernigan wrote
>>> an article in 1993 called "Euphemisms Excoriated." It's an interesting
>>> article. As for me, i just say I'm a blind person and let people
>>> qualify that as they may. If they take the time to get to know me, they
>>> will undoubtedly find that whatever negative assumptions they have are
>>> dead wrong.
>>> Original message:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled 
>>>> persons"
>>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it 
>>>> would
>>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term 
>>>> "persons
>>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>
>>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>
>>>> Haben
>>>
>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in 
>>>>> most
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>>> persons
>>>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>>> disability
>>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem
>>>>> is in
>>>>> me.
>>>
>>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>>> think
>>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>>> are
>>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end 
>>>>> up
>>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>
>>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>>> Canada's
>>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really 
>>>>> can't
>>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time 
>>>>> I
>>>>> say
>>>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>>> disability.
>>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>>> only
>>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example,
>>>>> there
>>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance. 
>>>>> When
>>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>>> this
>>>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was 
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>>> Far
>>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things to
>>>>> be
>>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>>>> special
>>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in 
>>>>> the
>>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting, 
>>>>> and
>>>>> it
>>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>>> disability
>>>>> differently.
>>>
>>>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>>>> disability,
>>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>>> anyway
>>>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it, 
>>>>> and
>>>>> for
>>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>>> think
>>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language 
>>>>> so
>>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>
>>>>> Haben
>>>
>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel 
>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist 
>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>>> this
>>>
>>>>>> topic.
>>>
>>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>>> What I
>>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that
>>>>>> blindness
>>>
>>>>> is
>>>
>>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot 
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through 
>>>>>> social
>>>>>> factors.
>>>
>>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we
>>>>>> seem
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>
>>>>> short,
>>>
>>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>
>>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>>> time
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>
>>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather 
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>
>>>>> Canadians.
>>>
>>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's possible
>>>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust 
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world 
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>
>>>>> viewed
>>>
>>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world
>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>>> be
>>>
>>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>
>>>>> training
>>>
>>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind 
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.  I
>>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>
>>>>> experiments
>>>
>>>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>>> blind?
>>>
>>>>> I
>>>
>>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>
>>>>> we'll
>>>
>>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>
>>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>
>>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments, 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>>> you
>>>
>>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them 
>>>>>> more
>>>
>>>>> than
>>>
>>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>>> possess
>>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain skin
>>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and 
>>>>>> significant
>>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other 
>>>>>> skin
>>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to 
>>>>>> possess
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>>> result
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>
>>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>>> Here's
>>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Marc,
>>>
>>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>>> physical
>>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day 
>>>>>> out.
>>>
>>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>
>>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>>> pickup
>>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite 
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>>> literary
>>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>
>>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>
>>>>> question?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>
>>>>> which,
>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can 
>>>>>>> persuade
>>>
>>>>> some
>>>
>>>>>>> of you.
>>>
>>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The 
>>>>>>> distinction
>>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>>>> codified
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>
>>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>>>> trait
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve 
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>
>>>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>
>>>>> building.
>>>
>>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the 
>>>>>>> fifteen
>>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put 
>>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door 
>>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>
>>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles 
>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>>> make
>>>
>>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my 
>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>>> had
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>
>>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a 
>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>
>>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up. 
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>
>>>>> disability.
>>>
>>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>>> available,
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is 
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>
>>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only 
>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to 
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>
>>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a 
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>>> eye
>>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and 
>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical 
>>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>>>> Marc
>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>> question?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>
>>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do 
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>
>>>>> major
>>>
>>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>
>>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>
>>>>> blind
>>>
>>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>
>>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>
>>>>>>> ca
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>
>>>>>> ca
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>> ca
>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> REspectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>
>>>
>>> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>> **************************************
>>>
>>
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