[nabs-l] studying abroad advise

Sun Apr 26 01:52:06 UTC 2009

Hi Lora and all,

Lora, I think you're right. What I meant was postponing the Europe
trip until next year in order to go to a center and get strong
blindness skills in the meantime. I feel it's much better to wait and
be able to do the trip independently rather than going now and not
being able to participate in the same way as the sighted students.

As for "liability", I don't know the specific legalities, but denying
a student access to study abroad on account of blindness is, at best,
questionable under the ADA. They might argue that they're allowing you
to go on the trip as long as you use what they deem to be a reasonable
accommodation (the companion/guide), but remember also that under the
ADA you have the right to refuse a specific accommodation.

This is a kind of situation when getting a local or state NFB officer
involved might be very helpful.

Arielle

On 4/26/09, Lora <blindhistory at gmail.com> wrote:
> Arielle
> I think that Priscilla doesn't have the time to go to a center since she
> said that time was running out (please correct me of I am wrong). I totally
> agree that you should be able to go on this trip by yourself without a
> sighted person right next to you all of the time.
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Arielle Silverman
> <arielle71 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Priscilla, I am not sure about the details of your proposed trip, like
>> how long you're planning to stay and whether it's a school-sponsored
>> group trip where a bunch of people go together or simply an exchange
>> program where you take classes at European universities as an
>> international student. I will, however, give you advice assuming it's
>> the most "risky" situation--a prolonged stay in Europe without being
>> part of a school group.
>>
>> I studied in Australia under this type of program for four months
>> during the spring of 2007. There I took classes at the University of
>> Melbourne, participated in sightseeing and other tourist events, and
>> also lived in a residential college (dorm), and I didn't have a guide.
>> In fact, I didn't know a single person in the whole country and only
>> had had brief email contact with the Australian program coordinator. I
>> got a few mobility lessons from a staff member at the local guide dog
>> school to learn my way around the campus and from the dorm to the
>> nearest tram stop, and I also got electronic copies of my course
>> materials from the disability services office in Melbourne. Other than
>> that I was on my own.
>>
>> I’m telling you this not to make myself sound like an amazing blind
>> person, because I’m not. On the contrary, my cane skills at that time
>> were far from exemplary. The fact is that I’m one of several blind
>> students who have traveled abroad without hired companions—including
>> students who went to places where English wasn’t the native language.
>> (For example, Kate Mendez from New York State went to Japan). Nor will
>> I deny the fact that I was scared out of my mind before I went. But,
>> now that I’m back safe and sound, I will say wholeheartedly that the
>> experience made me a stronger, more flexible, and ultimately a more
>> independent adult. Adjusting to life in Colorado after spending my
>> entire childhood and college years in Arizona (snow and all) wouldn’t
>> have been nearly as easy if I hadn’t gone abroad by myself. If I’d had
>> a companion follow me around everywhere, I wouldn’t have experienced
>> the ups and downs of trying to make new friends in a foreign country
>> or fully appreciated the unique culture and history that I learned
>> about.
>>
>> The point, which I can’t emphasize enough, is that *blindness by
>> itself* doesn’t necessitate having a full-time guide or companion in a
>> new place. Priscilla, you’re absolutely right to want to go without
>> your mother, and any school officials who claim that you have to have
>> a full-time companion are mistaken and should talk with members of the
>> NFB. If you’re going on a school trip, which it sounds like you are,
>> you can get the information you need from lectures by  asking
>> questions and listening. You can hire other students in your group to
>> read printed things to you if they’re absolutely essential, and you
>> can go places with other people in the group, or if you’re feeling
>> more adventurous, go out there and explore just like sighted travelers
>> do.
>>
>> However, not everyone, blind or sighted, has the desire or the
>> confidence to face the challenges of studying abroad on their own.
>> Fortunately there’s other ways to build your blindness skills,
>> confidence and problem-solving abilities without having to rely on
>> sighted companionship. Priscilla, if you want to go abroad, and want
>> to have the best experience possible and an experience like what your
>> sighted friends are getting, but are worried about handling the
>> challenges of getting around etc., then I’d urge you to spend some
>> time at one of our NFB training centers before you decide to go, if
>> you haven’t already been to one. At a center you will learn how to
>> contend with unfamiliar areas and other challenges on a much smaller
>> scale before you jump into Europe, and when you come out you will have
>> the skills and the confidence to really jump in and get the most out
>> of it, without having to be tethered to somebody else.
>>
>> Priscilla and all, I’d encourage you to look at our Website,
>> www.nabslink.org
>> for information about the training that’s available to blind students
>> and the types of things that, as a well-trained blind student, you’ll
>> be able to do effectively and on your own.
>>
>> Feel free to write me off-list if you have specific study-abroad
>> questions.
>>
>> Arielle Silverman
>>
>>
>> On 4/25/09, Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>> > generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>> > case that people from other countries, especially from the Third World,
>> > have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are usually
>> > taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes in
>> > the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>> > and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>> > sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just the
>> > tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more willing
>> > to help.
>> >
>> > Haben
>> >
>> > Serena wrote:
>> >> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>> >> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>> >> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>> >> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>> >> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my
>> >> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>> >> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>> >>
>> >> Serena
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>> >>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>> >>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>> >>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>> >>> Beth
>> >>>
>> >>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>> that
>> >>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>> >>>> however,
>> >>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>> >>>> acquaintances.  My
>> >>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>> >>>> Adventure.  I
>> >>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>> >>>> nobody
>> >>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>> >>>> blind or,
>> >>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>> >>>> younger
>> >>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>> >>>> him a
>> >>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>> >>>> I know
>> >>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>> >>>> international,
>> >>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Serena
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>> >>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>> >>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>> >>>>> not that.
>> >>>>> Beth
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>> >>>>>> option
>> >>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>> >>>>>> study
>> >>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>> >>>>>> them, so to
>> >>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>> >>>>>> a legal
>> >>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>> >>>>>> education
>> >>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had
>> a
>> >>>>>> blast.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>> >>>>>> will be a
>> >>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>> >>>>>> under
>> >>>>>> your
>> >>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>> >>>>>> responsibility.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>> >>>>>> services
>> >>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>> >>>>>> running
>> >>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>> >>>>>> all my
>> >>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>> >>>>>> They
>> >>>>>> can
>> >>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Just some ideas.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sincerely,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Mandarino
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> >>>>>> Behalf
>> >>>>>> Of priscilla
>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>> >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear all listers,
>> >>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>> >>>>>> studying
>> >>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>> >>>>>> because
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>> >>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>> >>>>>> abroad
>> >>>>>> with
>> >>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>> >>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>> >>>>>> Belgium,
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> Brussels.
>> >>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>> >>>>>> concerns for
>> >>>>>> me
>> >>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>> >>>>>> travel with
>> >>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>> >>>>>> because it
>> >>>>>> never happened.
>> >>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>> >>>>>> mentioned
>> >>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>> >>>>>> need
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>> >>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>> >>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>> >>>>>> because of
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>> >>>>>> social
>> >>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>> >>>>>> does not
>> >>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>> >>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>> >>>>>> explained to
>> >>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>> she
>> >>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>> >>>>>> which
>> >>>>>> was
>> >>>>>> pretty sad.
>> >>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>> >>>>>> situation and
>> >>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>> >>>>>> because
>> >>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>> >>>>>> to help
>> >>>>>> me
>> >>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>> >>>>>> I am.
>> >>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>> >>>>>> because
>> >>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>> >>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>> >>>>>> can't
>> >>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>> >>>>>> depend on
>> >>>>>> mom
>> >>>>>> as a last resort.
>> >>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>> >>>>>> school
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>> >>>>>> from work
>> >>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>> >>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>> >>>>>> because
>> >>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>> >>>>>> willing
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>> >>>>>> get moor
>> >>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>> >>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>> 1000
>> >>>>>> times
>> >>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>> >>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>> get
>> >>>>>> used
>> >>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>> >>>>>> to her
>> >>>>>> being with me all the time.
>> >>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>> >>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>> >>>>>> trip,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>> >>>>>> support.
>> >>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>> >>>>>> deposit the
>> >>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>> unless
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>> >>>>>> signing
>> >>>>>> up
>> >>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>> other
>> >>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>> >>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>> >>>>>> it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you very much
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Good day,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Priscilla
>> >>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>> >>>>>> learn how
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>> >>>>>> excited to
>> >>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>> >>>>>> tutoring
>> >>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>> >>>>>> projects
>> >>>>>> which I need help in.
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> --
> Lora
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