[nabs-l] studying abroad advise

Sun Apr 26 11:57:00 UTC 2009

I"d just go.  I can't sit around in my dorm and do nothing, so I'd
just go out there and find out what's happening, and just plain go.
Beth

On 4/26/09, Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com> wrote:
> If you're going to a place where the infrastructure is scanty, then do look
> in to your destination and be ready to be wrested from your comfort zone at
> second 1, but go!
>
> Ben
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 21:21
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>
>
> Hi all.
> Priscilla. If you don't feel completely confortable with traveling
> alone, maybe perhaps you should consider postponing your trip. If it
> is a program through the college, and they absolutely refuse to let
> you travel alone, CEA, is an agency that has programs abroad for
> college students all over the world. You will still get credits, but
> it will not be a program through your college. Thus, allowing you to
> make the decision of how you want to travel. This time will also allow
> you to set certain goals, so that by the time you travel to europe you
> are more confident, like Arielle said, and have the normal nerves we
> all have when traveling abroad, but have earned the knowledge you can
> surpass this challenge as well.
> Sometimes, making decisions about these situations, and being
> realistic about our capabilities and skills is difficult. If I did not
> feel prepare to go to France, and knew that perhaps, I just had the
> most horrendous mobility skills, and could not travel by myself, I
> would not go this summer. Instead, I would wait until a time, when I
> knew that I had all the necessary skills to be as independent as
> possible. So that when people told me, you can't go because of X
> reason, I could say yes I can, and truly believe it. But no matter how
> prepare you are, you will be nervous.
> What I'm trying to get to, is perhaps to step back in these last few
> days and consider all your options.
> 1. Hire someone who is going on the trip.
> 2. Ask about signing a waver to be able to be freed of the compliance
> rules. And going by yourself.
> 3. Taking a later trip to europe, and looking at CEA or another
> agency, that is involved with study abroad. You can sometimes even
> study abroad with other colleges, just do your research, and you will
> find something. In the meantime, do not let not going now stop you,
> instead, work hard to improve yourself, so that you are as ready as
> you'll ever be when studying abroad.
> Mary
>
> On 4/25/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> One more thing:
>>
>> If you're going on a relatively short group trip abroad, where
>> everyone in the group is going to the same places, staying in the same
>> hotels, etc. then it's not a problem to just stick with members of the
>> group, even if they're not close friends.
>>
>> I went on a three-week trip to eastern Europe with some students from
>> my scholarship class whom I knew vaguely but not real well. Since I
>> didn't speak the language and wasn't a very confident traveler at the
>> time I walked around with other students in the group (or we'd break
>> up into small groups). I went with different people at different times
>> although after a while I did establish a regular group of sorts that I
>> spent most of my time with. Even though these people weren't close
>> friends it wasn't like I was a burden to them since they were just
>> going places they would go anyway and I was just following them. And
>> it was a great way to make friends!
>>
>> So if you want to have a safer experience, agreeing to walk around
>> with at least one other person (even if it's not always the same
>> person) is a compromise. Again, there's no reason to bring someone
>> along just for that purpose.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 4/26/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Lora and all,
>>>
>>> Lora, I think you're right. What I meant was postponing the Europe
>>> trip until next year in order to go to a center and get strong
>>> blindness skills in the meantime. I feel it's much better to wait and
>>> be able to do the trip independently rather than going now and not
>>> being able to participate in the same way as the sighted students.
>>>
>>> As for "liability", I don't know the specific legalities, but denying
>>> a student access to study abroad on account of blindness is, at best,
>>> questionable under the ADA. They might argue that they're allowing you
>>> to go on the trip as long as you use what they deem to be a reasonable
>>> accommodation (the companion/guide), but remember also that under the
>>> ADA you have the right to refuse a specific accommodation.
>>>
>>> This is a kind of situation when getting a local or state NFB officer
>>> involved might be very helpful.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/26/09, Lora <blindhistory at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle
>>>> I think that Priscilla doesn't have the time to go to a center since she
>>>> said that time was running out (please correct me of I am wrong). I
>>>> totally
>>>> agree that you should be able to go on this trip by yourself without a
>>>> sighted person right next to you all of the time.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla, I am not sure about the details of your proposed trip, like
>>>>> how long you're planning to stay and whether it's a school-sponsored
>>>>> group trip where a bunch of people go together or simply an exchange
>>>>> program where you take classes at European universities as an
>>>>> international student. I will, however, give you advice assuming it's
>>>>> the most "risky" situation--a prolonged stay in Europe without being
>>>>> part of a school group.
>>>>>
>>>>> I studied in Australia under this type of program for four months
>>>>> during the spring of 2007. There I took classes at the University of
>>>>> Melbourne, participated in sightseeing and other tourist events, and
>>>>> also lived in a residential college (dorm), and I didn't have a guide.
>>>>> In fact, I didn't know a single person in the whole country and only
>>>>> had had brief email contact with the Australian program coordinator. I
>>>>> got a few mobility lessons from a staff member at the local guide dog
>>>>> school to learn my way around the campus and from the dorm to the
>>>>> nearest tram stop, and I also got electronic copies of my course
>>>>> materials from the disability services office in Melbourne. Other than
>>>>> that I was on my own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m telling you this not to make myself sound like an amazing blind
>>>>> person, because I’m not. On the contrary, my cane skills at that time
>>>>> were far from exemplary. The fact is that I’m one of several blind
>>>>> students who have traveled abroad without hired companions—including
>>>>> students who went to places where English wasn’t the native language.
>>>>> (For example, Kate Mendez from New York State went to Japan). Nor will
>>>>> I deny the fact that I was scared out of my mind before I went. But,
>>>>> now that I’m back safe and sound, I will say wholeheartedly that the
>>>>> experience made me a stronger, more flexible, and ultimately a more
>>>>> independent adult. Adjusting to life in Colorado after spending my
>>>>> entire childhood and college years in Arizona (snow and all) wouldn’t
>>>>> have been nearly as easy if I hadn’t gone abroad by myself. If I’d had
>>>>> a companion follow me around everywhere, I wouldn’t have experienced
>>>>> the ups and downs of trying to make new friends in a foreign country
>>>>> or fully appreciated the unique culture and history that I learned
>>>>> about.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point, which I can’t emphasize enough, is that *blindness by
>>>>> itself* doesn’t necessitate having a full-time guide or companion in a
>>>>> new place. Priscilla, you’re absolutely right to want to go without
>>>>> your mother, and any school officials who claim that you have to have
>>>>> a full-time companion are mistaken and should talk with members of the
>>>>> NFB. If you’re going on a school trip, which it sounds like you are,
>>>>> you can get the information you need from lectures by  asking
>>>>> questions and listening. You can hire other students in your group to
>>>>> read printed things to you if they’re absolutely essential, and you
>>>>> can go places with other people in the group, or if you’re feeling
>>>>> more adventurous, go out there and explore just like sighted travelers
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, not everyone, blind or sighted, has the desire or the
>>>>> confidence to face the challenges of studying abroad on their own.
>>>>> Fortunately there’s other ways to build your blindness skills,
>>>>> confidence and problem-solving abilities without having to rely on
>>>>> sighted companionship. Priscilla, if you want to go abroad, and want
>>>>> to have the best experience possible and an experience like what your
>>>>> sighted friends are getting, but are worried about handling the
>>>>> challenges of getting around etc., then I’d urge you to spend some
>>>>> time at one of our NFB training centers before you decide to go, if
>>>>> you haven’t already been to one. At a center you will learn how to
>>>>> contend with unfamiliar areas and other challenges on a much smaller
>>>>> scale before you jump into Europe, and when you come out you will have
>>>>> the skills and the confidence to really jump in and get the most out
>>>>> of it, without having to be tethered to somebody else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla and all, I’d encourage you to look at our Website,
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>> for information about the training that’s available to blind students
>>>>> and the types of things that, as a well-trained blind student, you’ll
>>>>> be able to do effectively and on your own.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to write me off-list if you have specific study-abroad
>>>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/25/09, Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>>>>> > generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>>>>> > case that people from other countries, especially from the Third
>>>>> > World,
>>>>> > have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are
>>>>> > usually
>>>>> > taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes
>>>>> > in
>>>>> > the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being
>>>>> > experienced
>>>>> > and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as
>>>>> > they
>>>>> > sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more
>>>>> > willing
>>>>> > to help.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Haben
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Serena wrote:
>>>>> >> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>>>> >> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>>>> >> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend
>>>>> >> who
>>>>> >> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>>>> >> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that
>>>>> >> my
>>>>> >> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>>>> >> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the
>>>>> >> case.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Serena
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>>> >> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>> >>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>>> >>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but
>>>>> >>> the
>>>>> >>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>> >>> Beth
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>>>>> that
>>>>> >>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>>>>> >>>> however,
>>>>> >>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>>>> >>>> acquaintances.  My
>>>>> >>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>> >>>> Adventure.  I
>>>>> >>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>> >>>> nobody
>>>>> >>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>> >>>> blind or,
>>>>> >>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>> >>>> younger
>>>>> >>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him,
>>>>> >>>> giving
>>>>> >>>> him a
>>>>> >>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>>>> >>>> I know
>>>>> >>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>> >>>> international,
>>>>> >>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Serena
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>> >>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it
>>>>> >>>>> makes
>>>>> >>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.
>>>>> >>>>> We're
>>>>> >>>>> not that.
>>>>> >>>>> Beth
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had
>>>>> >>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>> option
>>>>> >>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me.
>>>>> >>>>>> My
>>>>> >>>>>> study
>>>>> >>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>>>> >>>>>> them, so to
>>>>> >>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense
>>>>> >>>>>> of
>>>>> >>>>>> a legal
>>>>> >>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>> >>>>>> education
>>>>> >>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we
>>>>> >>>>>> had
>>>>> a
>>>>> >>>>>> blast.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>>>> >>>>>> will be a
>>>>> >>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>> >>>>>> under
>>>>> >>>>>> your
>>>>> >>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and
>>>>> >>>>>> take
>>>>> >>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from
>>>>> >>>>>> disability
>>>>> >>>>>> services
>>>>> >>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time
>>>>> >>>>>> is
>>>>> >>>>>> running
>>>>> >>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>> >>>>>> all my
>>>>> >>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me
>>>>> >>>>>> scholarships.
>>>>> >>>>>> They
>>>>> >>>>>> can
>>>>> >>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On
>>>>> >>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> >>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>> >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> >>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>> >>>>>> studying
>>>>> >>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>> >>>>>> because
>>>>> >>>>>> of
>>>>> >>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> >>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>> >>>>>> abroad
>>>>> >>>>>> with
>>>>> >>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>> >>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>> >>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>> >>>>>> and
>>>>> >>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> >>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>>>> >>>>>> concerns for
>>>>> >>>>>> me
>>>>> >>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>> >>>>>> travel with
>>>>> >>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>> >>>>>> because it
>>>>> >>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> >>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> >>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> >>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also
>>>>> >>>>>> I
>>>>> >>>>>> need
>>>>> >>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> >>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> >>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>> >>>>>> because of
>>>>> >>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>>>> >>>>>> social
>>>>> >>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>>>> >>>>>> does not
>>>>> >>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> >>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>> >>>>>> explained to
>>>>> >>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help
>>>>> >>>>>> me,
>>>>> she
>>>>> >>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>> >>>>>> which
>>>>> >>>>>> was
>>>>> >>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> >>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>> >>>>>> situation and
>>>>> >>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study
>>>>> >>>>>> abroad
>>>>> >>>>>> because
>>>>> >>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>>>> >>>>>> to help
>>>>> >>>>>> me
>>>>> >>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off
>>>>> >>>>>> than
>>>>> >>>>>> I am.
>>>>> >>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't
>>>>> >>>>>> go
>>>>> >>>>>> because
>>>>> >>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty
>>>>> >>>>>> soon.
>>>>> >>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to
>>>>> >>>>>> help
>>>>> >>>>>> can't
>>>>> >>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>>>> >>>>>> depend on
>>>>> >>>>>> mom
>>>>> >>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> >>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>> >>>>>> school
>>>>> >>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>> >>>>>> from work
>>>>> >>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> >>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to
>>>>> >>>>>> go
>>>>> >>>>>> because
>>>>> >>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>> >>>>>> willing
>>>>> >>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>>>> >>>>>> get moor
>>>>> >>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> >>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>> 1000
>>>>> >>>>>> times
>>>>> >>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> >>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have
>>>>> >>>>>> to
>>>>> get
>>>>> >>>>>> used
>>>>> >>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>>>> >>>>>> to her
>>>>> >>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> >>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel
>>>>> >>>>>> too
>>>>> >>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>> >>>>>> trip,
>>>>> >>>>>> but
>>>>> >>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else
>>>>> >>>>>> for
>>>>> >>>>>> support.
>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>>>> >>>>>> deposit the
>>>>> >>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>> unless
>>>>> >>>>>> they
>>>>> >>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>> >>>>>> signing
>>>>> >>>>>> up
>>>>> >>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>> other
>>>>> >>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> >>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really
>>>>> >>>>>> appreciate
>>>>> >>>>>> it.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Good day,
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> >>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>> >>>>>> learn how
>>>>> >>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>> >>>>>> excited to
>>>>> >>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I
>>>>> >>>>>> get
>>>>> >>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> >>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays
>>>>> >>>>>> for
>>>>> >>>>>> projects
>>>>> >>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Lora
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
> President Barack Obama
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