[nabs-l] traveling abroad advice

[Domonique Lawless]

Hi Priscilla,
What your school is trying to impose on you is illegal. I can
understand working out a buddy system with people who are going on the
trip with you but that is a reasonable precaution for anyone. what
state are you from by the way, and if you feel comfortable mentioning
it, what school is it that has this "liability policy."

Domonique

On 4/26/09, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh.
> Well, then, I'd raise hell about it for lack of a better way to put it
>  That's wht the NFB and good lawyers and a good lasuit can do.  And
> I'd raise the amount of money in the lawsuit so that it would be
> higher than it would be if you got hurt suddenly and felt the schoo
> responsible for your being hurt or something.  People sue though for
> ridiculous reasons such as a woman who sued McDonald's for her injury
> that resulted in spilling coffee on herself.  Even thatisn't a wrthy
> case.
> Beth
>
> On 4/26/09, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Beth,
>> Read the message carefully.  She has to
>> deal with liability because of the compliance office.
>> This is being imposed on her.  I think this is discrimination.  Beth, she
>> cannot just go on the trip due to the rules she is under.  They are
>> requiring her to be assisted.  I think this is way wrong.
>> Just because she is blind does not make her more of a liability.
>>
>> Its nice FSU is not like that raising irrational concerns about liability.
>> Such concerns are based on the false notion that the blind cannot travel
>> safely and are more of a safety hazard than other travelers.
>> Sadly these problems about liability are still around in 2009.
>> Ashley
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] traveling abroad advice
>>
>>
>>>I think you should just go.  Why bother with compliance and stuff?
>>> Why bother with liability?  FSU would be very happy to let me go to
>>> London to studyabroad.  I don't think I would haveany troble.
>>> Everybod here is really adamant that I be as independent as possible.
>>> But just for kicks, I'd bring a friend because I am a woman, and I
>>> don't want toget raped and possibly haveto go through the laws that
>>> the country has regarding rape.  The good new is you're not going to
>>> Saudi Arabia, where a blind woman was put in jail for premarital sex
>>> since she couldn't identify her rapist.  Sad.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/25/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hey all,
>>>> I agree with the point of not bringing my mother on this trip to the EU.
>>>> but, its not because I desired it or because I wanted to bring her on
>>>> the
>>>> trip because I want to act like a total dependent person, but what
>>>> really
>>>> annoys me is that my school puts on the policy issues of liability and
>>>> stuff.
>>>> another thing is that the dean called the compliance office to work out
>>>> the
>>>> legal plan for my mom to go but it seems like they are not going to
>>>> approve
>>>> it.
>>>> but I am trying to fight for this, but the school requires me to have
>>>> someone on the trip regardless if you are very independent or not,
>>>> because
>>>> of the stupid rules imposed by the compliance office on people with
>>>> disabilities services.
>>>> I think that my school should easy up here and be more flexible.
>>>> what do you all think?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>> I rely need help concerning this since time is running out and I need
>>>> deposits in as soon as possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:00 PM
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>>>
>>>>> Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>>   1. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>>>>   2. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley  Bramlett)
>>>>>   3. Why the NABS should pursue its own employment seminars (Jim Reed)
>>>>>   4. studying abroad advise (priscilla)
>>>>>   5. From A Student In Michigan (Elizabeth)
>>>>>   6. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (jonte)
>>>>>   7. Re: studying abroad advise (Mary Fernandez)
>>>>>   8. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (anna parker)
>>>>>   9. Re: From A Student In Michigan (anna parker)
>>>>>  10. Re: Webcasting the NFB national convention career seminar.
>>>>>      Who wants to help? (Tai Blas)
>>>>>  11. Re: studying abroad advise (Jason Mandarino)
>>>>>  12. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>>>  13. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>>>  14. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>>>  15. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>>>  16. GRE Material (Domonique Lawless)
>>>>>  17. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question?
>>>>>      (Haben Girma)
>>>>>  18. White Cane Program (Wilson, Joanne)
>>>>>  19. Re: studying abroad advise (Haben Girma)
>>>>>  20. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question? (Jedi)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:59:44 -0400
>>>>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <97844DEBCC9F43FFBEE8FA3C98F28994 at Ashley>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars
>>>>> for
>>>>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross
>>>>> the
>>>>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear
>>>>> being
>>>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.  Perhaps
>>>>> you
>>>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you
>>>>> saying
>>>>> you
>>>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>>>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>>>>> risk
>>>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>>>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> hear.
>>>>>
>>>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be
>>>>> noise
>>>>> on
>>>>> the car to hear it.
>>>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> be
>>>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>>>> will
>>>>> fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working on
>>>>> this.
>>>>> We
>>>>> are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on this one,
>>>>> that
>>>>> silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>> might
>>>>> pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other hand,
>>>>> there
>>>>> is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on forign
>>>>> oil,
>>>>> and enviromental damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>> support
>>>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great
>>>>> leap
>>>>> in
>>>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development,
>>>>> it
>>>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>>>> impact
>>>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>>>> importiant
>>>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>>>> dependence
>>>>> of forign oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>> development
>>>>> of
>>>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit,
>>>>> you
>>>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>> collapes.
>>>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>> changing
>>>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the
>>>>> era
>>>>> of
>>>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>> societal
>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>>> decline.
>>>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>> signature
>>>>> database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:07:38 -0400
>>>>> From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <F7C2FBB3A46A45ADAE6949F6ABAE0860 at Ashley>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>> Jont,
>>>>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>>>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>>>>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it
>>>>> will
>>>>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>>>>> wear
>>>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears
>>>>> off
>>>>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they
>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is
>>>>> still
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the
>>>>>> car
>>>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>>>> Jonte
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the
>>>>>> legislation.
>>>>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Robby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet
>>>>>>> cars
>>>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>>>> dependence
>>>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid
>>>>>>> car.
>>>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example,
>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our
>>>>>>> economy
>>>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us.
>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>>>> societal
>>>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>> From: Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Why the NABS should pursue its own employment
>>>>> seminars
>>>>> To: NABS mail list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <720742.14610.qm at web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> NABS board and officers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I strongly urge the NABS to pursue its own efforts towards providing
>>>>> job
>>>>> training/readyness. Meaningful employment counters dependence, and
>>>>> successful employment counters stereotypes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that for students, there would be an inherent advantage value
>>>>> associated with attending a seperate NABS produced employment seminar
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>> could possibly not be realized at the national convention level. For
>>>>> example, I've never been the shy, quiet type. in class, if I don't know
>>>>> an
>>>>>
>>>>> answer, I will ask the question, regardless of how stupid I may sound,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> I wont give a damn what anyone thinks. But, on the other hand, not all
>>>>> students are like me; many wont ask a question to save their life. If
>>>>> they wont ask a question in a classroom, what are the chances they will
>>>>> ask a question in a crowded national convention seminar that is full of
>>>>> older people, proffessionals, and strangers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, as students, we may not be up to par with the job skills
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> knowledge of an older, proffessional crowd. Maybe, for example,? some
>>>>> of
>>>>> us (like me) may just be begining to accept our blindness, thus have
>>>>> never
>>>>>
>>>>> looked for a job as a blind person before, and as a result, the
>>>>> education/training needs to start at the most basic level.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could list many more reasons and examples as to why the NABS should
>>>>> host
>>>>>
>>>>> its own job training workshops, but I think I've made my point.
>>>>>
>>>>> ?I'm not suggesting that we compete with the national convention
>>>>> efforts,we could do it anytime between September and March, and not
>>>>> compete directly with the convention. And, with the technology that is
>>>>> availiable, these efforts could be entirely web based, or if there is a
>>>>> NABS convention, that would be a good time to. I bet this is the type
>>>>> of
>>>>> project the Imagination Fund would jump all over.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think this idea is worth pursuing, and I intend to continue to do
>>>>> so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please concider supporting this proposal. Also, for everyone reading
>>>>> this
>>>>> on the list, make sure you let our leaders know what you want and need;
>>>>> they are not mind readers. If the NABS board and its officers get
>>>>> enough
>>>>> phone calls and emails in favor of an idea, they will hear the call,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>> have faith that they will respond to the needs of their consituants,
>>>>> and
>>>>> to the needs of their voters...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:34:14 -0400
>>>>> From: "priscilla" <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <BAY105-DS591589C1B088A83878496BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>> of
>>>>> the fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>>>> social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>>
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>> help
>>>>> me but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>> am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>>
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>>
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>> willing to give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I
>>>>> will
>>>>>
>>>>> get moor information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>>
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>>> up
>>>>>
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>> how
>>>>> to travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>> excited
>>>>> to learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>> projects which I need help in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:44:34 -0400
>>>>> From: Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <COL118-W4662D63EA588857C8DA448BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello List,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list,
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list
>>>>> from
>>>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not
>>>>> an
>>>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>>>> college student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions
>>>>> within
>>>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact
>>>>> person
>>>>> for anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>>>>> answering any questions you might have about what resources might be
>>>>> available in our state.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning
>>>>> of
>>>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes
>>>>> are
>>>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>>>>> please feel free to contact me off list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 6
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:49:18 -0500
>>>>> From: jonte <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <49f2332e.07045a0a.0581.ffff8a04 at mx.google.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe there are numerous problems with putting a mechanism in the cane
>>>>> that would detect a hybrid car.
>>>>> I'll concede to that.  However, if it ever were to happen, I would not
>>>>> throw a pity fest about the cost of the cane if a mechanism has been
>>>>> developed that could save my life.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:07 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>> Jont,
>>>>> I disagree.  Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>>>> detect the hybrid has several problems.  It likely will make the cane
>>>>> heavier.  It will make canes more fragile.  Lastly and importantly it
>>>>> will
>>>>> drive up the cost of canes.  We need canes to be affordable.  My canes
>>>>> wear
>>>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years.  The paint wears
>>>>> off
>>>>> and its just older.  So I want the cost of canes to stay where they
>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen.  So listening is
>>>>> still
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> valuable cue for all.  We should not take this away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the
>>>>>> car
>>>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>>>> Jonte
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the
>>>>>> legislation.
>>>>>>  It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them.  It simply states
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it.  It can be
>>>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> is audible.  I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Robby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet
>>>>>>> cars
>>>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>>>> dependence
>>>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid
>>>>>>> car.
>>>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example,
>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and  "green" energy, will potentially
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our
>>>>>>> economy
>>>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us.
>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>>>> societal
>>>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation,  or further economic
>>>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 7
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:59:23 -0400
>>>>> From: Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <fba03a170904241459o5f37d6a2k793691e7e85d5748 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Priscilla. How about hiring a student that is already going on the
>>>>> trip? I am going to Paris this summer, and the school is hiring two
>>>>> students, who are in the program, and who want to work with me, to do
>>>>> it. Basically, if I need to go shopping, and really don't want to go
>>>>> alone, I can just arrange something with them to accompany me. One of
>>>>> them is my friend, but again, this is not a matter where you can rely
>>>>> on friends. Studying abroad is expensive, and hard  not just for us.
>>>>> This is also quite a reasonable accomodation, since it's comparable to
>>>>> hiring a reader or something along those lines.
>>>>> So thinkabout it.
>>>>> Mary
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>>> mom
>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>> moor
>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>> signing
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>>> 30322
>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
>>>>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>>>>> President Barack Obama
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 8
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:05 -0500
>>>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <cfb22e3a0904241513k1ee5e356tdc5f0f5308e1718e at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> i totally agree with what your saying, i am one of those blind people
>>>>> who
>>>>> can also drive but id like to see some kind of noise in the cars
>>>>> because
>>>>>
>>>>> i
>>>>> do tavel with out a car a lot of the time and it can be scary enough
>>>>> crossing busy streets with out the fear of not hearing the cars.. so i
>>>>> strongly believe something needs to be done and something needs to be
>>>>> done
>>>>> now
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ashley Bramlett
>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation.  We need to hear cars
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> our safety and independence.  Blind people use auditory cues to cross
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> street.  There is simply no way around it.  I would not want to fear
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street.
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive.  I recall you
>>>>>> saying
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>>>>> You will put your safety at risk.  Sorry, I will not.  There is enough
>>>>>> risk
>>>>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>>>>> automobiles.  Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> hear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be
>>>>>> noise
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the car to hear it.
>>>>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety.  I
>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> will fight for this bill so you are outnumbered.  Yes ACB is working
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> this.  We are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> one, that silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>>> hand,
>>>>>> there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on
>>>>>> forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great
>>>>>> leap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this
>>>>>> development,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>>>>> impact
>>>>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>>>>> importiant
>>>>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>>>>> dependence
>>>>>> of forign oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>>>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>>> collapes.
>>>>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>>> changing
>>>>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the
>>>>>> era
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>>> societal
>>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>>>> decline.
>>>>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I
>>>>>> (we)
>>>>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 9
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:29:55 -0500
>>>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <cfb22e3a0904241529u3fb1d872s37a63173008b03ba at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> hey Elizabeth
>>>>>       my name is anna parker, im from mi, im on the student boared if
>>>>> youd
>>>>> like to get back involled let me know, were having a meeting this
>>>>> coming
>>>>> sunday.. we would love to have you. get back to me
>>>>> Anna
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello List,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>>>>> college
>>>>>> student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions
>>>>>> within
>>>>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>>>>>> answering
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> questions you might have about what resources might be available in
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> any help to anyone as a representative   from the state of Michigan,
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> feel free to contact me off list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 10
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:50 -0500
>>>>> From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>>>> seminar. Who wants to help?
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <000001c9c52e$6bada780$4308f680$@com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr. Will Schwatka usually takes care of recording needs for the
>>>>> convention.
>>>>> He has recorded NABS events in the past and may be able to let NABS
>>>>> use
>>>>> his
>>>>> equipment. contact him at the national center.
>>>>> Tai Blas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:50 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>>>> seminar.
>>>>> Who wants to help?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry about the last message--I had slightly misinterpreted this
>>>>> thread and thought we were talking about hosting our own career
>>>>> seminar. (It's been a long week!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Before we spend any money or make any webcasting arrangements, we need
>>>>> to talk to the people in charge of streaming the national convention
>>>>> general sessions. I am not sure who that would be but Mrs. Jernigan,
>>>>> who is in charge of all convention arrangements, can point us in the
>>>>> right direction, and she should be made aware of these plans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jim and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding is that there is already going to be a general
>>>>>> employment seminar at the convention on Friday, July 3. At least
>>>>>> that's what's happened in past years. NABS isn't going to  compete
>>>>>> with this annual career seminar, although we can certainly talk about
>>>>>> hosting a  job-related podcast or seminar during a different part of
>>>>>> the year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe the Affiliate Action department will also be hosting an
>>>>>> advocacy seminar sometime during convention. Again, I haven't seen the
>>>>>> agenda for this year, but am basing this on tradition from the seven
>>>>>> other national conventions I've attended thus far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> First Vice-President, NABS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have had little experience but would be happy to run the sound
>>>>>>> board.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>> Several things need to happen to make the NFB national convention
>>>>>>>> career
>>>>>>>> seminar available to all on the web. To begin with, you need to
>>>>>>>> vollenter
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> help. I may be going to the convention (pending a job interview
>>>>>>>> tomarrow),
>>>>>>>> if I go, I will be willing to do my part. But for now, I can get the
>>>>>>>> ball
>>>>>>>> rolling. If you are interested in helping out with some or all of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> following task, please email me OFF LIST (I get the NABS list in
>>>>>>>> digest
>>>>>>>> format, so its better to meail be directly)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First, we need to find the equipment.
>>>>>>>>    1  Does anybody have, or have access to,  high-end A/V recording
>>>>>>>> equipment?
>>>>>>>>    2.  If not, then the NFB/NABS needs to rent, or otherwize provide
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>>>>           1. NABS board members, what needs to happen to make those
>>>>>>>> funda
>>>>>>>> avaliable?
>>>>>>>>           2. The easiest thing would be to rent it in Detroit. We
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> find out where.
>>>>>>>>           3. And we need to arainge for someone to pick-up and
>>>>>>>> drop-off
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> gear.
>>>>>>>>           4. Perhaps the local college or high school A/V clubs
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> willing to allow us
>>>>>>>>              to borrow their gear, or maybe even take on
>>>>>>>> recording/production as a project.
>>>>>>>>           5. It may be worth while to contact the MI affiliate, or
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Detroit chapter to find local
>>>>>>>>              resources. Any Michigan students on the list?
>>>>>>>>    3.  Due to compatability issues, we need to know the specs of the
>>>>>>>> P.A.
>>>>>>>> system that
>>>>>>>>         will be used in Detroit. Can anyone find that info?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Next we need to focus on personell
>>>>>>>>     1. Depending on the lenght of the seminar, we may need several
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> willing to take
>>>>>>>>         turn running the camera. Who wants to take on recording
>>>>>>>> duties?
>>>>>>>>      2. Depending on the equipment, we may need people running sound
>>>>>>>> boards
>>>>>>>> or what
>>>>>>>>         not.
>>>>>>>>      3. Post-convention, we need someone to edit the raw footage
>>>>>>>>      4. Then we need to get it on the web. (Joe?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lastly, we need to contact the speaker
>>>>>>>>      1. It would be nice to find out her presentation plans so we
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> plan
>>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>>>       2. It would be nice to post her slide shows or other A/V
>>>>>>>> material
>>>>>>>> along with the video.
>>>>>>>>       3. We need copies of any handouts, so that they can be scanned
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> upoaded.
>>>>>>>>       4. To protect all of us, we need to secure written (signed,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> dated) permission from
>>>>>>>>           the speaker to record and post her presentation and
>>>>>>>> materials
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the web. I know
>>>>>>>>          Joe mentioned that she already gave permission, but I wont
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> further action until I
>>>>>>>>          see a signed document. As President Ronald Regan said,
>>>>>>>> "trust,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> verify."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope to hear from you guys,
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 11
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:28 -0400
>>>>> From: "Jason Mandarino" <blind.subscriber at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAADSA47abc95Akm8BjFP8CtFChgsAEAAAAPXsx1lYL5BIsZ4r9D2g2ykBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>> option
>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>> to
>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>> legal
>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>> education
>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>> blast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>> a
>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>> your
>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>> services
>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>> running
>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>>> can
>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>>> of
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with
>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>>> me
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>> help
>>>>> me
>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because
>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>> moor
>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times
>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>>> up
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>> how
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>> projects
>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 12
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:10:31 -0400
>>>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <4383d01d0904241710h7716ec3ew2103d33b65709b27 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>> not that.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>> option
>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>> study
>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>> legal
>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>> education
>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>>> mom
>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>> moor
>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>> signing
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 13
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:09:50 -0400
>>>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <002901c9c542$88faeff0$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure that
>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>> My
>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>>> I
>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>> blind
>>>>> or,
>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>> younger
>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>> him
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>>> know
>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>> international,
>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them,
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 14
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:31:04 -0400
>>>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <4383d01d0904241831x783c77d5t6e8c1e197ef4635 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> or,
>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>>> younger
>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>> international,
>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>> excited
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 15
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:23:57 -0400
>>>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <001701c9c54c$e3aecd40$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me any
>>>>> differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>>>>> went
>>>>> with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found anyone
>>>>> else
>>>>> to
>>>>> go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my sighted
>>>>> classmates
>>>>> would want to help me out with the trip just cuz they were my friends
>>>>> or
>>>>> acquaintances.  This proved not to be the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>>>> Adventure.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> or,
>>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>>>> younger
>>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.  I
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>>> international,
>>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them,
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>>> excited
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 16
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:53:46 -0500
>>>>> From: Domonique Lawless <dlawless86 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Material
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <423e6e460904241953v11cb72e8v7de52a9b0c8800d5 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am going to take the GRE in the Fall and was wondering what
>>>>> accessable study materials were out there, and what you guys have done
>>>>> to prepare. If you could offer any advice or can point me in the right
>>>>> direction I would greatly appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Domonique Lawless
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 17
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:31:39 -0700
>>>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <49F2841B.3020405 at aol.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled
>>>>> persons"
>>>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it
>>>>> would
>>>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term
>>>>> "persons
>>>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>>>
>>>>> Haben
>>>>>
>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>>>> persons
>>>>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>>>> disability
>>>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>>>> Canada's
>>>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example,
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.
>>>>>> When
>>>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>>>> Far
>>>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>>>>> special
>>>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>>>> disability
>>>>>> differently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>>>>> disability,
>>>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Haben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel
>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through
>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>> factors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we
>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> short,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Canadians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's possible
>>>>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> viewed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> training
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.  I
>>>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>>>> blind?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> than
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain skin
>>>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and
>>>>>>> significant
>>>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other
>>>>>>> skin
>>>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to
>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>>>> result
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>>>> Here's
>>>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day
>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>>>> pickup
>>>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>>>> literary
>>>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> which,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can
>>>>>>>> persuade
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The
>>>>>>>> distinction
>>>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>>>>> codified
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>>>>> trait
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> building.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the
>>>>>>>> fifteen
>>>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put
>>>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door
>>>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> make
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my
>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>>>> available,
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is
>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to
>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>>>> eye
>>>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and
>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical
>>>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> major
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 18
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:07 -0500
>>>>> From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org> (by way of David Andrews
>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>)
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] White Cane Program
>>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Message-ID: <auto-000095656176 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Free White Cane Message
>>>>>
>>>>>      If you have received a cane through our Free White Cane
>>>>> Program, then this message is for you!  We are preparing outreach
>>>>> materials, and would like a few quotes describing how you felt about
>>>>> getting your free cane.  Whether this was your first cane, or if
>>>>> you're an experienced cane user, we want to hear what you have to
>>>>> say.  For many, the White Cane is a symbol of independence,
>>>>> self-sufficiency, and freedom.  Please take a moment to tell us in a
>>>>> paragraph or two what the cane you received through the Free White
>>>>> Cane Program means to you.  Please e-mail your comments to
>>>>> <mailto:jwilson at nfb.org>jwilson at nfb.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Joanne Wilson
>>>>> Affiliate Action Executive Director
>>>>> 410-659-9314 extension 2335
>>>>> jwilson at nfb.org
>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>> Name: Free White Cane Message.doc
>>>>> Type: application/msword
>>>>> Size: 30208 bytes
>>>>> Desc: not available
>>>>> URL:
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20090424/63ed9c0f/attachment-0001.doc>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 19
>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:10:38 -0700
>>>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <49F28D3E.2040305 at aol.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>>>>> generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>>>>> case that people from other countries, especially from the Third World,
>>>>> have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are
>>>>> usually
>>>>> taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes in
>>>>> the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>>>>> and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>>>>> sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just
>>>>> the
>>>>> tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more
>>>>> willing
>>>>> to help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Haben
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena wrote:
>>>>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>>>>> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>>>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>>>>>> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>>>>> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that my
>>>>>> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>>>>> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the
>>>>>> case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>>>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>>>>>>> acquaintances.  My
>>>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>>>>> Adventure.  I
>>>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>>>> blind or,
>>>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>>>>>>> younger
>>>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>>>> him a
>>>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>>>>>>> I know
>>>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>>>> international,
>>>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it
>>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.  We're
>>>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>>>>>>>>> them, so to
>>>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>>>>>>>>>> a legal
>>>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we
>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>>>>>>>>> will be a
>>>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>>>>>>>>> concerns for
>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>>>>>>> travel with
>>>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>>>> explained to
>>>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>>>> situation and
>>>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>>>>>>>>> to help
>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>>>>>>>>>> I am.
>>>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>>>>>>>>> depend on
>>>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>>>>>>> from work
>>>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>>>>>>>>> get moor
>>>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>>>>>>>>> to her
>>>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>>>>>>>>> deposit the
>>>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>>>>>>> learn how
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>>>> excited to
>>>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 20
>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:15:41 -0400
>>>>> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Message-ID: <20090425061541.22144.74541 at web2.serotek.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I look at it this way. If we can indeed possess love or
>>>>> intelligence, we don't say "she has love." or "She has intelligence."
>>>>> Or, we don't say "A person with intelligence" or "A person with love."
>>>>> we say a loving person or an intelligent person. I think Jernigan had a
>>>>> lot going for him when he said that we only talk symantics with phrases
>>>>> that have a negative connotation or that are considered negative or
>>>>> stigmatizing characteristics. Let's take disability. Jernigan would
>>>>> argue that "disabled person" is effectively the same as "person with a
>>>>> disability" except that "disabled person" is less linguisticly awkward
>>>>> when used multiple times in a document or in speech. He would also
>>>>> argue that "person with a disability" might actually increase the
>>>>> stigma because we're effectively saying that the disability part is
>>>>> something we're not supposed to bring any attention to. Jernigan wrote
>>>>> an article in 1993 called "Euphemisms Excoriated." It's an interesting
>>>>> article. As for me, i just say I'm a blind person and let people
>>>>> qualify that as they may. If they take the time to get to know me, they
>>>>> will undoubtedly find that whatever negative assumptions they have are
>>>>> dead wrong.
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled
>>>>>> persons"
>>>>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>>>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal
>>>>>> designs"
>>>>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>>>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>>>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>>>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation.
>>>>>> Someone
>>>>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>>>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person"
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>>>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>>>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>>>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>>>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>>>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>>>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>>>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>>>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term
>>>>>> "persons
>>>>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>>>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>>>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>>>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>>>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>>>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both
>>>>>> terms
>>>>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>>>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a
>>>>>> kid
>>>>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>>>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Haben
>>>>>
>>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>>>>> persons
>>>>>>> with disabilities.  The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>>>>> disability
>>>>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me.  I can be
>>>>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> is in
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>>>>> Canada's
>>>>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Special Needs Centre".  And Among the many topics my colleagues and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre.  I really
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>> it.  And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness.  For example,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms,
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.
>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> could have been viewed as a special need.  In fact, the problem was
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>>>>> building.  Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>>>>> Far
>>>>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>>>>> consideration in the design of things.  Then when we ask for things
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design.  So the
>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>>>>> disability
>>>>>>> differently.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> A quick response to Nathan.  Just because blindness is legally a
>>>>>>> disability,
>>>>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>>> you look at it.  Legal definition is only one way of looking at it,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Haben
>>>>>
>>>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel
>>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> situated in a social context.  I see how this might imply that
>>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context.  In other words,
>>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through
>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>> factors.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out.  Where we
>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>>
>>>>>>> short,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Canadians.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB.  It's
>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> blindness is inherently bad.  I honestly don't know.  I won't trust
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life
>>>>>>>> living
>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate.  Imagine a world
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>>
>>>>>>> viewed
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>>
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>>
>>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in philosophy.  In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>>>>> blind?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that
>>>>>>>> exists,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments,
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it.  A disability
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> something a person possesses.  You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the
>>>>>>>> phrase
>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities.  You're absolutely right that some
>>>>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others.  Remember, certain
>>>>>>>> skin
>>>>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and
>>>>>>>> significant
>>>>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other
>>>>>>>> skin
>>>>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to
>>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> former skin colour.  We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>>>>> result
>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>>>>> Here's
>>>>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day
>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>>>>> pickup
>>>>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>>>>> literary
>>>>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>
>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>>
>>>>>>> which,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can
>>>>>>>>> persuade
>>>>>
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of you.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability.  It is an impairment.  The
>>>>>>>>> distinction
>>>>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies.  It was even
>>>>>>>>> codified
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body.  Any
>>>>>>>>> trait
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve
>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> construed as an impairment.  But impairments are essentially
>>>>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>>>>> impairments can become disabling.  In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let me give you an example.  I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>>
>>>>>>> building.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more
>>>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> with respect to my building.  I often voluntarily walk up the
>>>>>>>>> fifteen
>>>>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> my building.  This is rarely a problem though because we put
>>>>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door
>>>>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on.  All
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my
>>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>>
>>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats.  So if I have to identify as
>>>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>>>>> available,
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is
>>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above.  I only
>>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> persuasive and interesting.  And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site.  I think it tends to
>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> eye
>>>>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment).  It is the misunderstanding and
>>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist.  If we get rid of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical
>>>>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do
>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> major
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to
>>>>>>>>> minimize
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> REspectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>>
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>>>> **************************************
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dlawless86%40gmail.com
>