[nabs-l] traveling abroad advice
Beth
thebluesisloose at gmail.com
Mon Apr 27 01:58:01 UTC 2009
Oh.
Well, then, I'd raise hell about it for lack of a better way to put it
That's wht the NFB and good lawyers and a good lasuit can do. And
I'd raise the amount of money in the lawsuit so that it would be
higher than it would be if you got hurt suddenly and felt the schoo
responsible for your being hurt or something. People sue though for
ridiculous reasons such as a woman who sued McDonald's for her injury
that resulted in spilling coffee on herself. Even thatisn't a wrthy
case.
Beth
On 4/26/09, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Beth,
> Read the message carefully. She has to
> deal with liability because of the compliance office.
> This is being imposed on her. I think this is discrimination. Beth, she
> cannot just go on the trip due to the rules she is under. They are
> requiring her to be assisted. I think this is way wrong.
> Just because she is blind does not make her more of a liability.
>
> Its nice FSU is not like that raising irrational concerns about liability.
> Such concerns are based on the false notion that the blind cannot travel
> safely and are more of a safety hazard than other travelers.
> Sadly these problems about liability are still around in 2009.
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] traveling abroad advice
>
>
>>I think you should just go. Why bother with compliance and stuff?
>> Why bother with liability? FSU would be very happy to let me go to
>> London to studyabroad. I don't think I would haveany troble.
>> Everybod here is really adamant that I be as independent as possible.
>> But just for kicks, I'd bring a friend because I am a woman, and I
>> don't want toget raped and possibly haveto go through the laws that
>> the country has regarding rape. The good new is you're not going to
>> Saudi Arabia, where a blind woman was put in jail for premarital sex
>> since she couldn't identify her rapist. Sad.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 4/25/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> hey all,
>>> I agree with the point of not bringing my mother on this trip to the EU.
>>> but, its not because I desired it or because I wanted to bring her on the
>>> trip because I want to act like a total dependent person, but what really
>>> annoys me is that my school puts on the policy issues of liability and
>>> stuff.
>>> another thing is that the dean called the compliance office to work out
>>> the
>>> legal plan for my mom to go but it seems like they are not going to
>>> approve
>>> it.
>>> but I am trying to fight for this, but the school requires me to have
>>> someone on the trip regardless if you are very independent or not,
>>> because
>>> of the stupid rules imposed by the compliance office on people with
>>> disabilities services.
>>> I think that my school should easy up here and be more flexible.
>>> what do you all think?
>>>
>>> Thank you very much.
>>> I rely need help concerning this since time is running out and I need
>>> deposits in as soon as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:00 PM
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>>
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>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley Bramlett)
>>>> 2. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (Ashley Bramlett)
>>>> 3. Why the NABS should pursue its own employment seminars (Jim Reed)
>>>> 4. studying abroad advise (priscilla)
>>>> 5. From A Student In Michigan (Elizabeth)
>>>> 6. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (jonte)
>>>> 7. Re: studying abroad advise (Mary Fernandez)
>>>> 8. Re: Pedestrian safety improvement act (anna parker)
>>>> 9. Re: From A Student In Michigan (anna parker)
>>>> 10. Re: Webcasting the NFB national convention career seminar.
>>>> Who wants to help? (Tai Blas)
>>>> 11. Re: studying abroad advise (Jason Mandarino)
>>>> 12. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>> 13. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>> 14. Re: studying abroad advise (Beth)
>>>> 15. Re: studying abroad advise (Serena)
>>>> 16. GRE Material (Domonique Lawless)
>>>> 17. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question?
>>>> (Haben Girma)
>>>> 18. White Cane Program (Wilson, Joanne)
>>>> 19. Re: studying abroad advise (Haben Girma)
>>>> 20. Re: "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical question? (Jedi)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:59:44 -0400
>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <97844DEBCC9F43FFBEE8FA3C98F28994 at Ashley>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation. We need to hear cars
>>>> for
>>>> our safety and independence. Blind people use auditory cues to cross
>>>> the
>>>> street. There is simply no way around it. I would not want to fear
>>>> being
>>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street. Perhaps
>>>> you
>>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive. I recall you saying
>>>> you
>>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>>> You will put your safety at risk. Sorry, I will not. There is enough
>>>> risk
>>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>>> automobiles. Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>>> cannot
>>>> hear.
>>>>
>>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be noise
>>>> on
>>>> the car to hear it.
>>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety. I cannot
>>>> be
>>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>>
>>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>>> will
>>>> fight for this bill so you are outnumbered. Yes ACB is working on this.
>>>> We
>>>> are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on this one,
>>>> that
>>>> silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>> might
>>>> pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other hand,
>>>> there
>>>> is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on forign
>>>> oil,
>>>> and enviromental damage.
>>>>
>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>> support
>>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great
>>>> leap
>>>> in
>>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development,
>>>> it
>>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>>> impact
>>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>>> importiant
>>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>>> dependence
>>>> of forign oil.
>>>>
>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and development
>>>> of
>>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit,
>>>> you
>>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>> collapes.
>>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>> changing
>>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the era
>>>> of
>>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>>
>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>> societal
>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>> decline.
>>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
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>>>> signature
>>>> database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:07:38 -0400
>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <F7C2FBB3A46A45ADAE6949F6ABAE0860 at Ashley>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> Jont,
>>>> I disagree. Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>>> detect the hybrid has several problems. It likely will make the cane
>>>> heavier. It will make canes more fragile. Lastly and importantly it
>>>> will
>>>> drive up the cost of canes. We need canes to be affordable. My canes
>>>> wear
>>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years. The paint wears
>>>> off
>>>> and its just older. So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>>>
>>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen. So listening is
>>>> still
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> valuable cue for all. We should not take this away.
>>>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car?
>>>>> I
>>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>>> Jonte
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>>> It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them. It simply states that
>>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it. It can be
>>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something
>>>>> that
>>>>> is audible. I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Robby
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>>> dependence
>>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our
>>>>>> economy
>>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>>> societal
>>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> From: Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Why the NABS should pursue its own employment
>>>> seminars
>>>> To: NABS mail list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <720742.14610.qm at web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> NABS board and officers,
>>>>
>>>> I strongly urge the NABS to pursue its own efforts towards providing job
>>>> training/readyness. Meaningful employment counters dependence, and
>>>> successful employment counters stereotypes.
>>>>
>>>> I think that for students, there would be an inherent advantage value
>>>> associated with attending a seperate NABS produced employment seminar
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>> could possibly not be realized at the national convention level. For
>>>> example, I've never been the shy, quiet type. in class, if I don't know
>>>> an
>>>>
>>>> answer, I will ask the question, regardless of how stupid I may sound,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> I wont give a damn what anyone thinks. But, on the other hand, not all
>>>> students are like me; many wont ask a question to save their life. If
>>>> they wont ask a question in a classroom, what are the chances they will
>>>> ask a question in a crowded national convention seminar that is full of
>>>> older people, proffessionals, and strangers?
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, as students, we may not be up to par with the job skills
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> knowledge of an older, proffessional crowd. Maybe, for example,? some of
>>>> us (like me) may just be begining to accept our blindness, thus have
>>>> never
>>>>
>>>> looked for a job as a blind person before, and as a result, the
>>>> education/training needs to start at the most basic level.
>>>>
>>>> I could list many more reasons and examples as to why the NABS should
>>>> host
>>>>
>>>> its own job training workshops, but I think I've made my point.
>>>>
>>>> ?I'm not suggesting that we compete with the national convention
>>>> efforts,we could do it anytime between September and March, and not
>>>> compete directly with the convention. And, with the technology that is
>>>> availiable, these efforts could be entirely web based, or if there is a
>>>> NABS convention, that would be a good time to. I bet this is the type of
>>>> project the Imagination Fund would jump all over.
>>>>
>>>> I do think this idea is worth pursuing, and I intend to continue to do
>>>> so.
>>>>
>>>> Please concider supporting this proposal. Also, for everyone reading
>>>> this
>>>> on the list, make sure you let our leaders know what you want and need;
>>>> they are not mind readers. If the NABS board and its officers get enough
>>>> phone calls and emails in favor of an idea, they will hear the call, and
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>> have faith that they will respond to the needs of their consituants, and
>>>> to the needs of their voters...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:34:14 -0400
>>>> From: "priscilla" <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <BAY105-DS591589C1B088A83878496BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>>>
>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>> with me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> Brussels.
>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>> with
>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>> never happened.
>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>> mentioned
>>>>
>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>>> the fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>> to
>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>> was
>>>>
>>>> pretty sad.
>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>> and
>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>> because
>>>>
>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>>> me but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>> am.
>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>> because
>>>>
>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>> mom
>>>>
>>>> as a last resort.
>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>> work
>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>> because I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>> willing to give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I
>>>> will
>>>>
>>>> get moor information because I would like to go too."
>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>> times for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>> used
>>>>
>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>> but
>>>>
>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>> support.
>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>> they
>>>>
>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>> up
>>>>
>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>>> to travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>> to learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>> tutoring for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays
>>>> for
>>>>
>>>> projects which I need help in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:44:34 -0400
>>>> From: Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <COL118-W4662D63EA588857C8DA448BA720 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello List,
>>>>
>>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list, but
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list
>>>> from
>>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not
>>>> an
>>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>>> college student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>>
>>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions within
>>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact person
>>>> for anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>>>> answering any questions you might have about what resources might be
>>>> available in our state.
>>>>
>>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning
>>>> of
>>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes
>>>> are
>>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> any help to anyone as a representative from the state of Michigan,
>>>> please feel free to contact me off list.
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:49:18 -0500
>>>> From: jonte <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <49f2332e.07045a0a.0581.ffff8a04 at mx.google.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe there are numerous problems with putting a mechanism in the cane
>>>> that would detect a hybrid car.
>>>> I'll concede to that. However, if it ever were to happen, I would not
>>>> throw a pity fest about the cost of the cane if a mechanism has been
>>>> developed that could save my life.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:07 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>> Jont,
>>>> I disagree. Putting a mechanism in every cane to
>>>> detect the hybrid has several problems. It likely will make the cane
>>>> heavier. It will make canes more fragile. Lastly and importantly it
>>>> will
>>>> drive up the cost of canes. We need canes to be affordable. My canes
>>>> wear
>>>> out in a handful of years, like three or four years. The paint wears
>>>> off
>>>> and its just older. So I want the cost of canes to stay where they are.
>>>>
>>>> Also such legislation will help all pedestrians not just blind people.
>>>> Children are still taught to stop, look and listen. So listening is
>>>> still
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> valuable cue for all. We should not take this away.
>>>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "jonte" <jonte711 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How about putting a mechanism in the cane that detects the hybrid car?
>>>>> I
>>>>> think that would be much more effective than trying to persuade the car
>>>>> companies to accommodate us.
>>>>> Jonte
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally agree with you but I think you misunderstand the legislation.
>>>>> It is not necessarily saying that we have to cause setbacks in hybrid
>>>>> cars or even how we should be able to hear them. It simply states that
>>>>> the department of transportation would have to research it. It can be
>>>>> done without being a hinderance--there could be a mechanism on the car
>>>>> that would make a sound whose speed changes with the speed of the car.
>>>>> And let's remember that we don't want noise; we just want something
>>>>> that
>>>>> is audible. I think that most blind people would agree with sighted
>>>>> people that they don't want loud trucks driving past their houses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Robby
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Reed wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>>> hand, there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution,
>>>>>> dependence
>>>>>> on forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>>> support or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next
>>>>>> great leap in our society, if additional laws are passed regulating
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> development, it may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car.
>>>>>> Remember, the impact of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there
>>>>>> are much more importiant nation issues at stake. For example, national
>>>>>> security risk via a dependence of forign oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> of hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> the savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they
>>>>>> could jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our
>>>>>> economy
>>>>>> and individual families. If you go to the national convention in
>>>>>> Detroit,
>>>>>> you will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>>> collapes. Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not
>>>>>> hindering it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>>> changing world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the era of silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel
>>>>>> methodologies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>>> societal
>>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>>>> decline. I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I (we) refuse to adapt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert Spangler
>>>>> The University of Toledo
>>>>> Student Senate - Recording Secretary
>>>>> Ohio Association of Blind Students - President
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jonte711%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:59:23 -0400
>>>> From: Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <fba03a170904241459o5f37d6a2k793691e7e85d5748 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Hi Priscilla. How about hiring a student that is already going on the
>>>> trip? I am going to Paris this summer, and the school is hiring two
>>>> students, who are in the program, and who want to work with me, to do
>>>> it. Basically, if I need to go shopping, and really don't want to go
>>>> alone, I can just arrange something with them to accompany me. One of
>>>> them is my friend, but again, this is not a matter where you can rely
>>>> on friends. Studying abroad is expensive, and hard not just for us.
>>>> This is also quite a reasonable accomodation, since it's comparable to
>>>> hiring a reader or something along those lines.
>>>> So thinkabout it.
>>>> Mary
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, priscilla <priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>>> of
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with
>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>>> me
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>> help
>>>>> me
>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because
>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>> moor
>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times
>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>>> up
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>> how
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>> projects
>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>> 30322
>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
>>>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>>>> President Barack Obama
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:05 -0500
>>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <cfb22e3a0904241513k1ee5e356tdc5f0f5308e1718e at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> i totally agree with what your saying, i am one of those blind people
>>>> who
>>>> can also drive but id like to see some kind of noise in the cars because
>>>>
>>>> i
>>>> do tavel with out a car a lot of the time and it can be scary enough
>>>> crossing busy streets with out the fear of not hearing the cars.. so i
>>>> strongly believe something needs to be done and something needs to be
>>>> done
>>>> now
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ashley Bramlett
>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>>> I am shocked you would not support legislation. We need to hear cars
>>>>> for
>>>>> our safety and independence. Blind people use auditory cues to cross
>>>>> the
>>>>> street. There is simply no way around it. I would not want to fear
>>>>> being
>>>>> hit because I cannot hear half the cars as I cross the street. Perhaps
>>>>> you
>>>>> don't care because you have enough vision to drive. I recall you
>>>>> saying
>>>>> you
>>>>> comtemplated driving in a job because you wanted it so desperately.
>>>>> You will put your safety at risk. Sorry, I will not. There is enough
>>>>> risk
>>>>> in crossing because we are pedestrians and the environment favors
>>>>> automobiles. Let's not make it more dangerous by having many cars we
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> hear.
>>>>>
>>>>> we are not against the hybrid we are only saying there needs to be
>>>>> noise
>>>>> on
>>>>> the car to hear it.
>>>>> I care about the environment, but I also care about my safety. I
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> be
>>>>> independent if I am dead from a car crash.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have your own opinion but the national NFB, ACB, AFB and others
>>>>> will fight for this bill so you are outnumbered. Yes ACB is working on
>>>>> this. We are not working together with ACB but we actually agree on
>>>>> this
>>>>> one, that silent cars are a safety hazard to the blind.
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" <jim275_2 at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "MAB List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Pedestrian safety improvement act
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I am not quite sure how to feel on this issue. On one hand, quiet cars
>>>>> might pose a saftey risk to blind persons and others, but on the other
>>>>> hand,
>>>>> there is such a thing as noise pollution, air pollution, dependence on
>>>>> forign oil, and enviromental damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aditionally, there is another element of this issue related to the
>>>>> support
>>>>> or hinderance of societal progress. Hybrids represent the next great
>>>>> leap
>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> our society, if additional laws are passed regulating this development,
>>>>> it
>>>>> may prove to hinder the development of the hybrid car. Remember, the
>>>>> impact
>>>>> of hybrid cars isnt just a blindness issue, there are much more
>>>>> importiant
>>>>> nation issues at stake. For example, national security risk via a
>>>>> dependence
>>>>> of forign oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also economic concerns. The continued research and
>>>>> development
>>>>> of
>>>>> hybrids, alternative fuels, and "green" energy, will potentially be the
>>>>> savior of our economy. If hybrids become the next big thing, they could
>>>>> jumpstart the nearly dead auto industry, thus helping our economy and
>>>>> individual families. If you go to the national convention in Detroit,
>>>>> you
>>>>> will all see first hand the conciquences of this current economic
>>>>> collapes.
>>>>> Now is the time to be supporting industy and inovation, not hindering
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, if blind independence is truely the goal of the NFB and blind
>>>>> persons, then the burden is on us -- blind people-- to adapt to the
>>>>> changing
>>>>> world, the burden is not on the world to adapt to us. Perhaps in the
>>>>> era
>>>>> of
>>>>> silent cars, it may be time to tweak cane-travel methodologies?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't support this. I will not be a party to the hinderance of
>>>>> societal
>>>>> progress, continued enviromental degradfation, or further economic
>>>>> decline.
>>>>> I will not expect industy or tax payers to foot the bill because I (we)
>>>>> refuse to adapt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well thats my two cents
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 4033 (20090424) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 9
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:29:55 -0500
>>>> From: anna parker <anna.parker.11 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] From A Student In Michigan
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <cfb22e3a0904241529u3fb1d872s37a63173008b03ba at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> hey Elizabeth
>>>> my name is anna parker, im from mi, im on the student boared if
>>>> youd
>>>> like to get back involled let me know, were having a meeting this coming
>>>> sunday.. we would love to have you. get back to me
>>>> Anna
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Elizabeth <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello List,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not been keeping up to date with all of the post on the list,
>>>>> but
>>>>> I
>>>>> noticed one post asking if there were any blind students on the list
>>>>> from
>>>>> Michigan. I just wanted to let everyone know that even though I am not
>>>>> an
>>>>> active member of the student devision in Michigan, that I am a blind
>>>>> college
>>>>> student who resides in the state of Michigan.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not live near Detroit nor do I hold any leadership positions
>>>>> within
>>>>> our state affiliate, but I would be willing to serve as a contact
>>>>> person
>>>>> for
>>>>> anything related to the upcoming national convention including
>>>>> answering
>>>>> any
>>>>> questions you might have about what resources might be available in our
>>>>> state.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not been activally involved in convention planning so far due to
>>>>> unresolved health issues that I have been battling since the beginning
>>>>> of
>>>>> the semester on top of a hectic class schedule. However, once classes
>>>>> are
>>>>> over, I plan to devote more time to convention planning, so if I can be
>>>>> of
>>>>> any help to anyone as a representative from the state of Michigan,
>>>>> please
>>>>> feel free to contact me off list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
>>>>>
>>>>> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anna.parker.11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 10
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:50 -0500
>>>> From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>>> seminar. Who wants to help?
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <000001c9c52e$6bada780$4308f680$@com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Will Schwatka usually takes care of recording needs for the
>>>> convention.
>>>> He has recorded NABS events in the past and may be able to let NABS use
>>>> his
>>>> equipment. contact him at the national center.
>>>> Tai Blas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Arielle Silverman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:50 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Webcasting the NFB national convention career
>>>> seminar.
>>>> Who wants to help?
>>>>
>>>> Hi again,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry about the last message--I had slightly misinterpreted this
>>>> thread and thought we were talking about hosting our own career
>>>> seminar. (It's been a long week!)
>>>>
>>>> Before we spend any money or make any webcasting arrangements, we need
>>>> to talk to the people in charge of streaming the national convention
>>>> general sessions. I am not sure who that would be but Mrs. Jernigan,
>>>> who is in charge of all convention arrangements, can point us in the
>>>> right direction, and she should be made aware of these plans.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jim and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding is that there is already going to be a general
>>>>> employment seminar at the convention on Friday, July 3. At least
>>>>> that's what's happened in past years. NABS isn't going to compete
>>>>> with this annual career seminar, although we can certainly talk about
>>>>> hosting a job-related podcast or seminar during a different part of
>>>>> the year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the Affiliate Action department will also be hosting an
>>>>> advocacy seminar sometime during convention. Again, I haven't seen the
>>>>> agenda for this year, but am basing this on tradition from the seven
>>>>> other national conventions I've attended thus far.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> First Vice-President, NABS
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I have had little experience but would be happy to run the sound
>>>>>> board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Jim Reed <jim275_2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>> Several things need to happen to make the NFB national convention
>>>>>>> career
>>>>>>> seminar available to all on the web. To begin with, you need to
>>>>>>> vollenter
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> help. I may be going to the convention (pending a job interview
>>>>>>> tomarrow),
>>>>>>> if I go, I will be willing to do my part. But for now, I can get the
>>>>>>> ball
>>>>>>> rolling. If you are interested in helping out with some or all of the
>>>>>>> following task, please email me OFF LIST (I get the NABS list in
>>>>>>> digest
>>>>>>> format, so its better to meail be directly)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, we need to find the equipment.
>>>>>>> 1 Does anybody have, or have access to, high-end A/V recording
>>>>>>> equipment?
>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the NFB/NABS needs to rent, or otherwize provide
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>>> 1. NABS board members, what needs to happen to make those
>>>>>>> funda
>>>>>>> avaliable?
>>>>>>> 2. The easiest thing would be to rent it in Detroit. We
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> find out where.
>>>>>>> 3. And we need to arainge for someone to pick-up and
>>>>>>> drop-off
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> gear.
>>>>>>> 4. Perhaps the local college or high school A/V clubs would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> willing to allow us
>>>>>>> to borrow their gear, or maybe even take on
>>>>>>> recording/production as a project.
>>>>>>> 5. It may be worth while to contact the MI affiliate, or
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Detroit chapter to find local
>>>>>>> resources. Any Michigan students on the list?
>>>>>>> 3. Due to compatability issues, we need to know the specs of the
>>>>>>> P.A.
>>>>>>> system that
>>>>>>> will be used in Detroit. Can anyone find that info?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next we need to focus on personell
>>>>>>> 1. Depending on the lenght of the seminar, we may need several
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> willing to take
>>>>>>> turn running the camera. Who wants to take on recording
>>>>>>> duties?
>>>>>>> 2. Depending on the equipment, we may need people running sound
>>>>>>> boards
>>>>>>> or what
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>> 3. Post-convention, we need someone to edit the raw footage
>>>>>>> 4. Then we need to get it on the web. (Joe?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lastly, we need to contact the speaker
>>>>>>> 1. It would be nice to find out her presentation plans so we can
>>>>>>> plan
>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>> 2. It would be nice to post her slide shows or other A/V
>>>>>>> material
>>>>>>> along with the video.
>>>>>>> 3. We need copies of any handouts, so that they can be scanned
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> upoaded.
>>>>>>> 4. To protect all of us, we need to secure written (signed, and
>>>>>>> dated) permission from
>>>>>>> the speaker to record and post her presentation and
>>>>>>> materials
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the web. I know
>>>>>>> Joe mentioned that she already gave permission, but I wont
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> further action until I
>>>>>>> see a signed document. As President Ronald Regan said,
>>>>>>> "trust,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> verify."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope to hear from you guys,
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 11
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:28 -0400
>>>> From: "Jason Mandarino" <blind.subscriber at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAADSA47abc95Akm8BjFP8CtFChgsAEAAAAPXsx1lYL5BIsZ4r9D2g2ykBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the option
>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>> to
>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>> legal
>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the education
>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>> blast.
>>>>
>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be a
>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>> your
>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>> responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>> services
>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>> running
>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>> can
>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>
>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Mandarino
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of priscilla
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>> of
>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>> with
>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>> and
>>>> Brussels.
>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>> me
>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>> with
>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>> never happened.
>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>> mentioned
>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>> to
>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because of
>>>> the
>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>> to
>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>> was
>>>> pretty sad.
>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>> and
>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>> because
>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to help
>>>> me
>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>> because
>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help can't
>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>> mom
>>>> as a last resort.
>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>> to
>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>> work
>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>> because
>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>> to
>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get moor
>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>> times
>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>> used
>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>> but
>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>> support.
>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>> they
>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>> up
>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn how
>>>> to
>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited to
>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>> tutoring
>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>> projects
>>>> which I need help in.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>> mail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 12
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:10:31 -0400
>>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <4383d01d0904241710h7716ec3ew2103d33b65709b27 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children. We're
>>>> not that.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>> option
>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My study
>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>> to
>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>> legal
>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>> education
>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>> blast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>> a
>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>> your
>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>> services
>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>> running
>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all my
>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships. They
>>>>> can
>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to studying
>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out because
>>>>> of
>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>> with
>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns for
>>>>> me
>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>> with
>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because it
>>>>> never happened.
>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does not
>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>> to
>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>> was
>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>> and
>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>> because
>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>> help
>>>>> me
>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I am.
>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>> because
>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>> can't
>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>> mom
>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another school
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>> work
>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>> because
>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>> moor
>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>> times
>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to her
>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>> but
>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>> support.
>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit the
>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>> they
>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are signing
>>>>> up
>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>
>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>
>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>> how
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>> tutoring
>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>> projects
>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 13
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:09:50 -0400
>>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <002901c9c542$88faeff0$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian. I'm not sure that
>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>> My
>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>> I
>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>> nobody
>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being blind
>>>> or,
>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation! I ended up asking a
>>>> younger
>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving him
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him. I
>>>> know
>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>> international,
>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>
>>>> Serena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children. We're
>>>>> not that.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>> option
>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>> study
>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them, so
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>> legal
>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>> education
>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years under
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go abroad
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands, Belgium,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I explained
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend on
>>>>>> mom
>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>> moor
>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the trip,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>> signing
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 14
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:31:04 -0400
>>>> From: Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <4383d01d0904241831x783c77d5t6e8c1e197ef4635 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>> average sighted American? This is weird. I know international
>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian. I'm not sure that
>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>> My
>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>>> I
>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>> blind
>>>>> or,
>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation! I ended up asking a
>>>>> younger
>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>> him
>>>>> a
>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him. I
>>>>> know
>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>> international,
>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children. We're
>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them,
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had a
>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me, she
>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my situation
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god 1000
>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to get
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday unless
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving other
>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am excited
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 15
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:23:57 -0400
>>>> From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <001701c9c54c$e3aecd40$0301a8c0 at Serene>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me any
>>>> differently just cuz I'm blind. True, they were sometimes more
>>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me. My friend who
>>>> went
>>>> with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found anyone
>>>> else
>>>> to
>>>> go with and I said I hadn't. He simply thought that my sighted
>>>> classmates
>>>> would want to help me out with the trip just cuz they were my friends or
>>>> acquaintances. This proved not to be the case.
>>>>
>>>> Serena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>> average sighted American? This is weird. I know international
>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian. I'm not sure
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you, however,
>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your acquaintances.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great Adventure.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> or,
>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation! I ended up asking a
>>>>>> younger
>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him. I
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>> international,
>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children. We're
>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to them,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of a
>>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this will
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover all
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had concerns
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually travel
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip because
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in social
>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it does
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid to
>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than I
>>>>>>>> am.
>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to depend
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences from
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will get
>>>>>>>> moor
>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed to
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to deposit
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to learn
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>> excited
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 16
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:53:46 -0500
>>>> From: Domonique Lawless <dlawless86 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] GRE Material
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <423e6e460904241953v11cb72e8v7de52a9b0c8800d5 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I am going to take the GRE in the Fall and was wondering what
>>>> accessable study materials were out there, and what you guys have done
>>>> to prepare. If you could offer any advice or can point me in the right
>>>> direction I would greatly appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Domonique Lawless
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 17
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:31:39 -0700
>>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>> question?
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <49F2841B.3020405 at aol.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled persons"
>>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it would
>>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term "persons
>>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>>
>>>> Haben
>>>>
>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in
>>>>> most
>>>>> of
>>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>>> persons
>>>>> with disabilities. The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>>> disability
>>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me. I can be
>>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>>> think
>>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>>> are
>>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end
>>>>> up
>>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>>> Canada's
>>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>>> "Special Needs Centre". And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre. I really can't
>>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time I
>>>>> say
>>>>> it. And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>>> disability.
>>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>>> only
>>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness. For example,
>>>>> there
>>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance. When
>>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>>> this
>>>>> could have been viewed as a special need. In fact, the problem was
>>>>> that
>>>>> the
>>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>>> building. Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>>> Far
>>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>>> consideration in the design of things. Then when we ask for things to
>>>>> be
>>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design. So the
>>>>> special
>>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in the
>>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting, and
>>>>> it
>>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>>> disability
>>>>> differently.
>>>>>
>>>>> A quick response to Nathan. Just because blindness is legally a
>>>>> disability,
>>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>>> anyway
>>>>> you look at it. Legal definition is only one way of looking at it, and
>>>>> for
>>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>>> think
>>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language so
>>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>>>
>>>>> Haben
>>>>>
>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel
>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist with
>>>>>>
>>>>> this
>>>>>
>>>>>> topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>>> What
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>>> situated in a social context. I see how this might imply that
>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot because
>>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context. In other words,
>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through social
>>>>>> factors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out. Where we
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>>>
>>>>> short,
>>>>>
>>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>>> time
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather than
>>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>> Canadians.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB. It's possible
>>>>>> blindness is inherently bad. I honestly don't know. I won't trust my
>>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate. Imagine a world
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>>>
>>>>> viewed
>>>>>
>>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>>>
>>>>> training
>>>>>
>>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind people
>>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness. I
>>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>>>
>>>>> experiments
>>>>>
>>>>>> in philosophy. In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>>> blind?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>>>>
>>>>> we'll
>>>>>
>>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments, or
>>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it. A disability is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> something a person possesses. You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>>> persons with disabilities. You're absolutely right that some
>>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>
>>>>> than
>>>>>
>>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>>> possess
>>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others. Remember, certain skin
>>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and significant
>>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other
>>>>>> skin
>>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to possess
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> former skin colour. We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>>> result
>>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>>> Here's
>>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>>> physical
>>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>>> pickup
>>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>>> literary
>>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>>>>
>>>>> which,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can persuade
>>>>>>>
>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability. It is an impairment. The distinction
>>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and is
>>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies. It was even
>>>>>>> codified
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body. Any
>>>>>>> trait
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> construed as an impairment. But impairments are essentially
>>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>>> impairments can become disabling. In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me give you an example. I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>>>>
>>>>> building.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> with respect to my building. I often voluntarily walk up the fifteen
>>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> my building. This is rarely a problem though because we put
>>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door
>>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles that
>>>>>>>
>>>>> make
>>>>>
>>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on. All
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my blindness.
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a
>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>>>>
>>>>> disability.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats. So if I have to identify as
>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>>> available,
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is yet
>>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above. I only
>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>>> persuasive and interesting. And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site. I think it tends to support
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>>> eye
>>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment). It is the misunderstanding and
>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist. If we get rid of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical
>>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>> question?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>>>>>
>>>>> major
>>>>>
>>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>>>>>
>>>>> blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>> ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 18
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:07 -0500
>>>> From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org> (by way of David Andrews
>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>)
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] White Cane Program
>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>> Message-ID: <auto-000095656176 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Free White Cane Message
>>>>
>>>> If you have received a cane through our Free White Cane
>>>> Program, then this message is for you! We are preparing outreach
>>>> materials, and would like a few quotes describing how you felt about
>>>> getting your free cane. Whether this was your first cane, or if
>>>> you're an experienced cane user, we want to hear what you have to
>>>> say. For many, the White Cane is a symbol of independence,
>>>> self-sufficiency, and freedom. Please take a moment to tell us in a
>>>> paragraph or two what the cane you received through the Free White
>>>> Cane Program means to you. Please e-mail your comments to
>>>> <mailto:jwilson at nfb.org>jwilson at nfb.org.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Joanne Wilson
>>>> Affiliate Action Executive Director
>>>> 410-659-9314 extension 2335
>>>> jwilson at nfb.org
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> Name: Free White Cane Message.doc
>>>> Type: application/msword
>>>> Size: 30208 bytes
>>>> Desc: not available
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20090424/63ed9c0f/attachment-0001.doc>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 19
>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:10:38 -0700
>>>> From: Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <49F28D3E.2040305 at aol.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>>>> generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>>>> case that people from other countries, especially from the Third World,
>>>> have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are usually
>>>> taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes in
>>>> the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>>>> and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>>>> sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just the
>>>> tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more willing
>>>> to help.
>>>>
>>>> Haben
>>>>
>>>> Serena wrote:
>>>>> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>>>> any differently just cuz I'm blind. True, they were sometimes more
>>>>> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me. My friend who
>>>>> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>>>> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't. He simply thought that my
>>>>> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>>>> they were my friends or acquaintances. This proved not to be the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Serena
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>>>>> average sighted American? This is weird. I know international
>>>>>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but the
>>>>>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian. I'm not sure
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>>>>>> acquaintances. My
>>>>>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>>>>>> Adventure. I
>>>>>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>>>>>> blind or,
>>>>>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation! I ended up asking a
>>>>>>> younger
>>>>>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him, giving
>>>>>>> him a
>>>>>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>>>>>> I know
>>>>>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>>>>>> international,
>>>>>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Serena
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>>>>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it makes
>>>>>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children. We're
>>>>>>>> not that.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>>>>>>>> them, so to
>>>>>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>>>>>>>>> a legal
>>>>>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we had
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> blast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>>>>>>>> will be a
>>>>>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>>>>>>>> responsibility.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from disability
>>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me scholarships.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mandarino
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of priscilla
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>>>>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>>>>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>>>>>>>> abroad
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> me and she really liked the idea of going to Israel.
>>>>>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>>>>>>>> Belgium,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Brussels.
>>>>>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>>>>>>>> concerns for
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>>>>>>>> travel with
>>>>>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>>>> never happened.
>>>>>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also I
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>>>>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>>>>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>>>>>>>> explained to
>>>>>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> pretty sad.
>>>>>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>>>>>>>> situation and
>>>>>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study abroad
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>>>>>>>> to help
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>>>>>>>>> I am.
>>>>>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't go
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>>>>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to help
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>>>>>>>> depend on
>>>>>>>>> mom
>>>>>>>>> as a last resort.
>>>>>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>>>>>>>> from work
>>>>>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>>>>>>>> She called me up and told me "I am not sure I I will be able to go
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>>>>>>>> get moor
>>>>>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>>>>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>>>>>>>> 1000
>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>>>>>>>> to her
>>>>>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>>>>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel too
>>>>>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>>>>>>>> trip,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>>>>>>>> deposit the
>>>>>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>>>>>>>> signing
>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>>>>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really appreciate
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good day,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>>>>>>>> learn how
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>>>>>>>> excited to
>>>>>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>>>>>>>> tutoring
>>>>>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>>> which I need help in.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.subscriber%40g
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 20
>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:15:41 -0400
>>>> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>> question?
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Message-ID: <20090425061541.22144.74541 at web2.serotek.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> Well, I look at it this way. If we can indeed possess love or
>>>> intelligence, we don't say "she has love." or "She has intelligence."
>>>> Or, we don't say "A person with intelligence" or "A person with love."
>>>> we say a loving person or an intelligent person. I think Jernigan had a
>>>> lot going for him when he said that we only talk symantics with phrases
>>>> that have a negative connotation or that are considered negative or
>>>> stigmatizing characteristics. Let's take disability. Jernigan would
>>>> argue that "disabled person" is effectively the same as "person with a
>>>> disability" except that "disabled person" is less linguisticly awkward
>>>> when used multiple times in a document or in speech. He would also
>>>> argue that "person with a disability" might actually increase the
>>>> stigma because we're effectively saying that the disability part is
>>>> something we're not supposed to bring any attention to. Jernigan wrote
>>>> an article in 1993 called "Euphemisms Excoriated." It's an interesting
>>>> article. As for me, i just say I'm a blind person and let people
>>>> qualify that as they may. If they take the time to get to know me, they
>>>> will undoubtedly find that whatever negative assumptions they have are
>>>> dead wrong.
>>>> Original message:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>>> I feel that the terms "persons with disabilities" and "disabled
>>>>> persons"
>>>>> are both a bit vague and interpretable in various ways. One could read
>>>>> it as "persons with disabilities caused by a lack of universal designs"
>>>>> or "persons with disabilities that prevent them from being full
>>>>> participants in society." I find that the message one gets from these
>>>>> terms depends on the attitudes they approach them with. I think it
>>>>> would
>>>>> take a lot of positive thinking to see that the term "disabled person"
>>>>> means social forces are restricting the person's participation. Someone
>>>>> with a negative attitude might hear the phrase "disabled person" and
>>>>> think "Oh, that guy just can't do it." The term "disabled person" would
>>>>> probably be interpreted as an inherently incompetent person rather than
>>>>> the more open-minded interpretation of one affected by social forces.
>>>>> Come to think of it, most people would be more likely to adopt a
>>>>> negative interpretation from both terms. I do like that the term
>>>>> "persons with disabilities" acknowledges that the subjects are persons
>>>>> before going to stress that the persons have disabilities. Consider the
>>>>> term "persons with socially incurred impairments." Can one possess a
>>>>> "socially incurred impairment?" Like a disability, a socially incurred
>>>>> impairment is abstract. So now I've come to that philosophical realm
>>>>> where we ask whether abstract concepts, such as love and intelligence,
>>>>> can be possessed. If not, then it would seem OK to use the term
>>>>> "persons
>>>>> with disabilities" because it would not mean that we possess the
>>>>> disabilities. If we can possess abstract concepts, if we can possess
>>>>> disabilities, then we can also possess "socially incurred impairments"
>>>>> because that's precisely what disabilities are, as you've described it.
>>>>> So if we can also possess socially incurred impairments, then it would
>>>>> seem philosophically appropriate to use the term persons with
>>>>> disabilities. Not that disabled persons is wrong, of course. Both terms
>>>>> can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as I said at the start, and
>>>>> I've just been thinking out some of those possibilities.
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I, too, detest the term special needs. I would swallow it as a kid
>>>>> thinking that was how grown-ups wanted to get ablebodied children to be
>>>>> nice to disabled children. "Special" is a nice and simple word that all
>>>>> kids can understand. I now question it's use for any group, but it's
>>>>> especially repulsive to hear it used for adults.
>>>>
>>>>> Haben
>>>>
>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>>> Haben, since you asked, and since you seem genuinely interested, in
>>>>>> most
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> my writings on disability I try to say disabled persons, rather than
>>>>>> persons
>>>>>> with disabilities. The latter phrase suggests that I possess a
>>>>>> disability
>>>>>> whereas to be disabled is to have something imposed on me. I can be
>>>>>> disabled by social arrangements that are constructed to suit a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> kind of body, but if I am a person with a disability, then the problem
>>>>>> is in
>>>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>>> That said, even though I think language is important in shaping how we
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> about things, I recognize that we have bigger problems than whether we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> referred to as disabled people or people with disabilities, and I end
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> using the latter phrase quite a bit out of habit, so I wouldn't try to
>>>>>> correct someone who said persons with disabilities.
>>>>
>>>>>> However, today I met with some representatives from Bell, one of
>>>>>> Canada's
>>>>>> major telecommunications companies, and they have something called the
>>>>>> "Special Needs Centre". And Among the many topics my colleagues and I
>>>>>> raised with Bell was the atrocious name of this centre. I really
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> stand the name special needs; it makes me shutter a little every time
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> it. And I think it really reflects a bad way of thinking about
>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>> To connect it to what we've been talking about, I would argue that it
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> seems like we have special needs because we have built most of our
>>>>>> institutions without any consideration for blindness. For example,
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> was likely a time when many buildings didn't have women's washrooms, a
>>>>>> legislative building in the early twentieth century for instance.
>>>>>> When
>>>>>> women began getting elected to office, washrooms had to be built, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> could have been viewed as a special need. In fact, the problem was
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> designers of the building just ignored women in their plans for the
>>>>>> building. Something similar happens in the case of disability today.
>>>>>> Far
>>>>>> too often, characteristics outside the norm just aren't taken into
>>>>>> consideration in the design of things. Then when we ask for things to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> change to better suit people with different kinds of bodies, it gets
>>>>>> labelled as a special need rather than a failure in design. So the
>>>>>> special
>>>>>> needs centre is a situation where I think the attitude reflected in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> language was important enough for us to bring it up at the meeting,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> gave us a chance to try to encourage them to start thinking about
>>>>>> disability
>>>>>> differently.
>>>>
>>>>>> A quick response to Nathan. Just because blindness is legally a
>>>>>> disability,
>>>>>> which I fully recognize, doesn't mean that blindness is a disability
>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>> you look at it. Legal definition is only one way of looking at it,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the reasons I've mentioned in the last few messages, I really don't
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> it's the right way of looking at it.
>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Haben Girma
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Marc, you mention that you don't like using the phrase "persons with
>>>>>> disabilities" because it implies that the characteristics are the
>>>>>> problem, not the societal forces. How might use the English language
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> that blame is not places on the characteristics?
>>>>
>>>>>> Haben
>>>>
>>>>>> mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't usually like to get into debates on lists because I feel
>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>> about cluttering up people's inboxes, but it's too hard to resist
>>>>>>> with
>>>>
>>>>>> this
>>>>
>>>>>>> topic.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio, I didn't intend to suggest that blindness is meaningless.
>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>> tried to get across is that blindness receives its meaning from being
>>>>>>> situated in a social context. I see how this might imply that
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>>>> meaningless outside of a social context, but the point is moot
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> blindness can't exist outside a social context. In other words,
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>> definitely always has meaning; it just gets its meaning through
>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>> factors.
>>>>
>>>>>>> This is also why I can completely agree with you that blindness is
>>>>>>> associated with tremendous challenges day in and day out. Where we
>>>>>>> seem
>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>>>> disagree is that I don't think these challenges are inherent to
>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>> I think that most, if not all, of the challenges could be eliminated
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> institutions, programs, policies, attitudes, physical structures, in
>>>>
>>>>>> short,
>>>>
>>>>>>> society itself, were different.
>>>>
>>>>>>> If I thought blindness were inherently negative, I'd be spending my
>>>>>>> time
>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>>>> effort volunteering for the Foundation Fighting Blindness, rather
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> working to change society with the Alliance for Equality of Blind
>>>>
>>>>>> Canadians.
>>>>
>>>>>>> If social factors weren't at least partly responsible for the
>>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>>> blind people face, there would be no need for the NFB. It's possible
>>>>>>> blindness is inherently bad. I honestly don't know. I won't trust
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> instincts on this question because I have spent my entire life living
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>> society that views blindness as a terrible fate. Imagine a world
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> every book was available in alternative formats, where blindness was
>>>>
>>>>>> viewed
>>>>
>>>>>>> as a unique way of experiencing the world, an experience of the world
>>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>>>> valued in its own right, where every blind person received the best
>>>>
>>>>>> training
>>>>
>>>>>>> possible, where inventors and business people took blindness into
>>>>>>> consideration when designing products and services, where blind
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> didn't face misconceptions and negative attitudes about blindness. I
>>>>>>> realize it sounds utopian, but we're always using wacky thought
>>>>
>>>>>> experiments
>>>>
>>>>>>> in philosophy. In this imagined world, would it be a tragedy to be
>>>>>>> blind?
>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>>>> don't think so, but until we remove every social barrier that exists,
>>>>
>>>>>> we'll
>>>>
>>>>>>> never really know for sure.
>>>>
>>>>>>> To Jedi, totally agree with what you say about the term impairment.
>>>>
>>>>>>> To Haben, a disability is something that is imposed on impairments,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> characteristics outside of the norm, as Jedi puts it. A disability
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> something a person possesses. You can be disabled by social forces,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>>>> don't possess a disability, which is why I typically avoid the phrase
>>>>>>> persons with disabilities. You're absolutely right that some
>>>>>>> characteristics outside the norm have disabilities imposed on them
>>>>>>> more
>>>>
>>>>>> than
>>>>
>>>>>>> others, but I'm not sure if that means it is inherently worse to
>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>> those characteristics rather than the others. Remember, certain skin
>>>>>>> colours throughout history have had negative attitudes and
>>>>>>> significant
>>>>>>> challenges associated with them that weren't associated with other
>>>>>>> skin
>>>>>>> colours, but this doesn't mean that it was inherently worse to
>>>>>>> possess
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> former skin colour. We now realize that society was wrong in those
>>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>>> and I'm cautiously opptimistic that the hard work of individuals and
>>>>>>> advocacy groups fighting to remove social barriers will eventually
>>>>>>> result
>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>>> society coming to realize that it was wrong about blindness too.
>>>>>>> Here's
>>>>>>> hoping anyways.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc,
>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't buy a lot of what you are saying. Blindness is not only a
>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>> descriptor. It is not escencially meaningless. I see your argument
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> social reactions to blindness, and simply don't agree.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps reading and discussing Jernigan's points in Handicap or
>>>>>>> characteristic is in order, but we need to be a little more honest
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> ourselves about the challenges blindness does pose day in and day
>>>>>>> out.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>
>>>>>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of
>>>>>>> pickup
>>>>>>> trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
>>>>>>> literary
>>>>>>> works in Braille.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>>>>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>>>>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: <mworkman at ualberta.ca>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:50 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>
>>>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> An interesting question, and I'm going to throw out an opinion with
>>>>
>>>>>> which,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suspect, quite a few will disagree at first, but maybe I can
>>>>>>>> persuade
>>>>
>>>>>> some
>>>>
>>>>>>>> of you.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blindness is not a disability. It is an impairment. The
>>>>>>>> distinction
>>>>>>>> between impairments and disabilities goes back nearly 40 years and
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> well-entrenched in the field of disability studies. It was even
>>>>>>>> codified
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the World Health Organizations International Classification of
>>>>>>>> Impairments,
>>>>>>>> Disabilities, and Handicaps.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> In short, an impairment is a physical descriptor of the body. Any
>>>>>>>> trait
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> characteristic that lands near the outer edges of the bell curve
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> construed as an impairment. But impairments are essentially
>>>>>>>> meaningless
>>>>>>>> until you situate them in a social context, and in certain social
>>>>>>>> contexts,
>>>>>>>> impairments can become disabling. In other words, disabilities are
>>>>>>>> imposed
>>>>>>>> on impairments by certain social arrangements.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me give you an example. I live on the fifteenth floor of my
>>>>
>>>>>> building.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The building of course has an elevator, but when it stops working,
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> people who are not normally defined as disabled become more disabled
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> with respect to my building. I often voluntarily walk up the
>>>>>>>> fifteen
>>>>>>>> flights, but many who are use to taking the elevator would find this
>>>>>>>> difficult or impossible, and would become disabled at least with
>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> my building. This is rarely a problem though because we put
>>>>>>>> elevators
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> tall buildings, but what if we also put ramps, automatic door
>>>>>>>> openers,
>>>>>>>> accessible washrooms, etc in all our buildings too? Then many people
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> wheelchairs would no longer be disabled, as their impairments would
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> significantly impact on their lives.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am certainly disabled, but not by my blindness, by social
>>>>>>>> arrangements,
>>>>>>>> lack of adequate blindness training in Canada, quiet automobiles
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>> make
>>>>
>>>>>>>> travel dangerous, discrimination, and the list goes on and on. All
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> things, however, are social factors that are imposed on my
>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>> blindness is essentially neutral, and I think this is what Jernigan
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>>>> mind when calling blindness a characteristic, though it's been a
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>> I read his work.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I realize that this is not how disability is defined in the ADA, but
>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> because the people who defined disability in the ADA screwed up.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> didn't go far enough in recognizing the social construction of
>>>>
>>>>>> disability.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that's not surprising when you consider the one's who wrote the
>>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats. So if I have to identify as
>>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> order to receive the supports, legal and otherwise, that are
>>>>>>>> available,
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> I will, but not because I am, just because I have to, and this is
>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>> another example of how social arrangements are disabling.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there are some problems with what I've said above. I only
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> out there as a way of thinking about blindness and disability I find
>>>>>>>> persuasive and interesting. And in closeing, I'm going to paste a
>>>>>>>> quotation
>>>>>>>> taken from the homepage of the NFB site. I think it tends to
>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> position I've outlined.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>> is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exist. If a
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a
>>>>>>>> physical
>>>>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, the disabling aspect of blindness is not the lack of
>>>>>>>> eye
>>>>>>>> sight (i.e., not the impairment). It is the misunderstanding and
>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> information (i.e., the social forces) that exist. If we get rid of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> disabling social forces, blindness is no more than a physical
>>>>>>>> nuisance
>>>>>>>> (i.e., a neutral characteristic).
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:57 AM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] "Blindness" vs. "Disability" a philosophical
>>>>>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello, Just wanted to quickly throw in my two scents.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blindness is a disability. We who are blind are not able to do
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> things. We benefit From or fight against services for disabled
>>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> receive disability checks from the government, and we have loss of a
>>>>
>>>>>> major
>>>>
>>>>>>>> life function, sight.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jernigan never argued that the blind are not disabled, he argued for
>>>>
>>>>>> blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>> people not to see themselves as handicapped. There is a difference.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am disabled by definition, and clearly make an attempt to minimize
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> disability with the use of adapted technologies, and a positive
>>>>>>>> attitude,
>>>>>>>> but I am unequivocally disabled.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>
>>>>>>> ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta.
>>>>>> ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> REspectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29
>>>> **************************************
>>>>
>>>
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