[nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Fri Jun 19 02:22:13 UTC 2009

Joe,

I don't think we do agree.  You're saying that the nice thing to do is for
universities to assist students to orient themselves around campus, assuming
that the student doesn't already receive this assistance through some other
program.  So it's nice that schools do this, but it isn't exactly wrong if
they don't.  A school that refused to do this would simply not be acting in
accordance with common courtesy or human kindness.

There is a pretty significant gap between that position and arguing that a
school that fails to provide this reasonable accommodation, where providing
the accommodation would not constitute an undo hardship, is failing to
fulfill its legal/moral obligations.  I include moral there because I don't
care if this is mandated by law.  If it isn't, then it should be.

I think the difference between not acting nicely and failing to meet
obligations is a real difference with serious legal/moral implications.  For
one, you can refuse to act kindly without being forced to pay a penalty.
It's true, you might occasionally be made to pay a penalty through bad
publicity, but you just as easily may not.  Refuse to obey the law, on the
other hand, and you are always subject to being penalized.

Rather than this being an unwarranted debate, I think it reflects much
deeper disagreements about personal responsibility, the role of government,
and the effectiveness of legal requirements.  Given its ties to these deeper
issues, the debate is probably useless, but not unwarranted.

Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:44 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Marc,

You're looking for a debate where no debate is warranted.  We agree.  There
is, to my knowledge, no law requiring schools at any level to provide anyone
to show a blind student where anything is located on a college campus.  I
could be wrong but I believe everything concerning accommodations has to do
with the classroom itself.  My argument for a school providing this
orientation service has to do with the same kind of common courtesy I myself
would show someone if asked the location of a building or room.  When I
first arrived at Texas State I requested someone from the disability office
to show me the buildings my first semester.  After that, if I was going out
to a part of campus I had not as yet learned, I asked a friend, or sometimes
a reader, to do me the favor of showing me the building I needed.  From the
part of the university I believe the gesture to be so small as to negate any
reason they would have for not fulfilling the request.  And, if the school
does not provide the service, the student can ask someone else to do them
the favor.  In summary, I believe schools should provide this minimal form
of orientation not out of a legal obligation but out of a sense of simple
human kindness.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:07 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Joe,

You said

"the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy."

Then you said,

"a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student
to their classrooms."

You have to admit there is some ambiguity here.  My guess is
that what you are saying is that the school does have a
responsibility to provide the service, but that in cases where
the school is not providing this service, it is then up to the
student to find his or her own way.

If that is indeed what you meant, then we agree, but that is
not at all what you implied in the original post.  You made it
sound like the school, quote, need not be expected to carry out
this courtesy, end quote, but a student could request this of
the school, and the school would be hard pressed to say no.
You offer the example of going to the newspapers, which suggest
that a student could shame them into doing it.  For me,
however, there is a big difference between saying the school is
failing to meet its responsibilities, and saying that the
school would have a difficult time facing a public shaming.
The latter assertion doesn't imply that the school has any
responsibility whatsoever, and it really sounded like you were
adopting the latter position.  Now, I really can't tell if you
favour the former, like me, or the latter.

No sarcasm at all.  Those are only minimal standards of
accessibility that came off the top of my head.  If I thought
about it, I could come up with many others.  It may be true
that absolutely no school meets even these minimal criteria (I
really have no idea), but that is beside the point.  The point
is that, unless the school does meet the criteria, the school
has a responsibility to assist students with orientation to
classrooms and other destinations.  If a school were fully
accessible, then I could accept the argument that it is
entirely the student's responsibility, but, as you said, no
schools are, so the school thus has a responsibility.

Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:56 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Marc,

Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the
responsibility of the blind person to find their own classrooms?

This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible:

1. Fully accessible maps

2. Braille on every classroom door

3. Accessible elevators

4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for
the blind individual

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm
wrong.  But no institution could come clean on all four points,
and even if it planned to do so in the future, there is still
the matter of the here and now where the blind student still
needs to find their way.  My e-mail very clearly suggests a
school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to
their classrooms.  Imagine how that would pan out in the local
newspapers?
But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet
time about getting its act together, it is the responsibility
of the student to find their way around campus just as it is
their responsibility, and not the school's, to have the
assignments completed.  The student should file a complaint or
do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm
referring to what needs to be done today because when classes
start the student needs to get there with or without the
university's assistance.
College is, after all, one step away from real life, and
accessible maps, labeled doors and such are certainly not a
part of finding the office for an interview.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on
the crowd."--Max Lucado

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not
through assistance from the university, then whose
responsibility is it.  My gut tells me you will say that it is
of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has
been wrong in the past.

Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless
the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every
classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a
manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a
blind person to get around, then the university does have a
responsibility to offer this sort of assistance.  In Canada
anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is
a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo
hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law.

But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe  it is.

Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake
this task.
If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private
institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on
hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person
to his or her classes.  A blind student need not have
government assistance to be shown this courtesy.  In turn, the
school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I
think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor.
Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to
help you move forward with something more solid with the school.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on
the crowd."--Max Lucado

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help

Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a
research topic on mobility.  It involves a hypothetical
question.  What would happen to a visually impaired student on
your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and
mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies?
 Let us say in this example the student already had basic white
cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them
until they had a route planned?  Would the college or
university offer direct help?  On my campus, such help is seen
as the individual responsibility of the blind student.   It is
simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay
for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help
should post a flyer on college bulletin boards.  It just seems
to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the
college or university could be designated to offer some
assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run
through so a student could get to classes each semester.  I
have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my
suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears.   My request for
tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored.  Is this similar
or not to the situation on your campus?  Thanks for any
thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________
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