[nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?

[Jedi]

Dave,

Sadly, there are blind people who also agree that we're more dependent 
than everyone else, too and would therefore be grateful to be pulled 
and prodded. Sad indeed.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> Why do people think it is okay to touch us when they wouldn't do the
> same to sighted adults.  I have thought about this a lot and have
> concluded that part of their minds put us in the same class as small
> children, so it is okay to touch and direct us as we are
> semi-helpless and need assistance.

> Clearly some people don't regard us as independent, fully functional,
> rights-holding adults.

> Dave

> At 12:35 AM 9/23/2009, you wrote:
>> a couple of things that  were interesting were  the concept of space.
>> I find so much that  people will grap you and  push you to redirect
>> you; something  you would clearly not do to a sighted individual.  I
>> wonder what logical reason people   have cross their minds  to make it
>> ok. to do something like that.

>>  As for  people identifying themselves;  some people do a rather good
>> job of saying   where I've met them ( that is   those who don't screw
>> up my   name lol).   within my time in AmeriCorps,  I would  actually
>> hold a conversation with someone for  a couple of minutes and  within
>> this conversation I could  figure out  what project  they had, what
>> team they were on, and by doing so I was able to successfully id  the
>> person.  So the only way  I  think  this relates back, is sometimes
>> you just have to kind of   make a person talk  a bit  and you'll
>> probably find out who it is if you have time to.

>> On 9/22/09, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello All.
>>> I have not been following this thread faithfully, however, I just
>>> schemed through and found some very interesting questions that are
>>> actually not unique in this setting. I am a psychology major at Emory
>>> University, where research is our middle name! Thus, some of this
>>> facial expression experiments have been conducted here. but I will
>>> just talk about a very classic experiment  by Paul Ekman.
>>> Paul Ekman took videos of 100s of remote cultures from all around the
>>> world. He took clips of those videos and classified the facial
>>> expression, by categorizing what muscles in the face were used to make
>>> those expressions. As he watched more and more clipse he determined a
>>> clear pattern of emotions, of people across cultures who had never met
>>> each other, some of which had not tv or access to the outside world,
>>> and who had radically different customs and traditions.
>>> He then took pictures of different faces and asked others what emotion
>>> the subject in the picture was experiencing. He discovered that for
>>> the most part most people could tell what the picture was showing.
>>> Thus, he came up with a few basic emotions which are:
>>> Anger
>>> Disgust
>>> Fear
>>> Happiness
>>> Sadness
>>> Surprise
>>> Later, in 1992, he added to the list, disgust, contempt, pride,
>>> excitement, embarrassment, guilt,  relief, satisfaction, sensory
>>> pleasure and shame. I think i got them all. All this is to say, that
>>> facial expression are not cultural or learned behavior, but rather
>>> biological. Thus, as a blind person, our face reflect at the very
>>> least these emotions that I listed. The only difference is that we are
>>> not readily conscious of how we make these face of guilt for example.
>>> Sighted people can look in the mirror and practice looking ashamed, it
>>> is a certain slant of the eyes, a certain lowering of the brows, we
>>> have to think about it and consciously make an effort if we want to
>>> become proficient at making these expressions at will. I am a
>>> performer as well, and one of the big things I work on is facial
>>> expression, how do I consciously convey to the audience what I'm
>>> feeling? It takes practice but it is doable. And it is a valid skill
>>> to learn, since sometimes we want to hide a little bit that anger we
>>> fell towards our manager! Ok, my answer was a little long.
>>> But all this is to merely say, that when you are pissed off, it will
>>> show on your face. Smile. If you however, do not show any facial
>>> expression or significantly lack body language, this is not do to
>>> being blind and not having learned expressions, it is rather a
>>> personality thing, and it probably just means that you are much more
>>> cool-headed, and get less easily aroused than most people.
>>> Mary

>>> On 9/22/09, Teal Bloodworth <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Right i have no usable vision. Not all blind people are socially awkwad if
>>>> they are blind from birth. I agree with you that explaining is basically a
>>>> waste of time. I am saying this guy brought questions to my mind....is it
>>>> harder to lose your vision mid life or to never have it to lose? Things
>>>> like
>>>> this and if one has been sheltered either sighted or not they are going to
>>>> have a bit of social awkwardness. This guy had never really been around
>>>> people without knowing how to act.

>>>>             -Teal
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>> I hope you are not implying that all people that have been blind since
>>>>> birth are socially awkward. I may not have lots of sighted friends, but
>>>>> this is not due to me not knowing how to act. Also when people concitter
>>>>> themselves blind it does not meen that they see absolootly nothing. I have
>>>>> a little bit of usable vision, but not enough to do much with and when
>>>>> people ask I say I am blind. I don't bother with attempting to explain the
>>>>> miniscule amount of vision I have, it just confuses people.

>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:29 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>> well honestly i have only been around one guy totally blind since birth
>>>>>> and he was socially awkward. When he was happy or excited he would do a
>>>>>> wiggling of the butt up against someone and would giggle like a child
>>>>>> when he was 27. I think he was sheltered his whole life by his parents
>>>>>> since he was adopted and the only blind/V.I. in the house. I guess this
>>>>>> gave me an indifferent impression.

>>>>>> Another guy with retina problems can see like looking through a straw
>>>>>> and

>>>>>> was a senior in college trying to be a priest. He is probably my hero
>>>>>> and

>>>>>> gave me some saying i will use in the future.

>>>>>>            -Teal
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:50 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>> Teal,

>>>>>>> I don't know which blind guys you're hanging with, but I don't notice
>>>>>>> too much difference between those born blind versus those who had sight
>>>>>>> at some point. Fundamentally, there is no significant personality
>>>>>>> differences between the two. Life experiences may vary, and life
>>>>>>> experiences shape our perceptions, but not so much so that it
>>>>>>> fundamentally changes an individual on such a deep level. That is,
>>>>>>> unless they let it.

>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi


>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> you dont show any emotion? I am sorry but that is hard to
>>>>>>>> believe....maybe
>>>>>>>> the facial expression you do show is presumibly unfriendly?

>>>>>>>> As for them not talking to you that is rediculus. The dark shades is
>>>>>>>> alittle
>>>>>>>> stereotipical for me but i oddly keep my eyes open....Not sure why and
>>>>>>>> i say
>>>>>>>> i am totally blind but i dont just see darkness. This is probably a
>>>>>>>> psychological factor in that i see a type of gray scale all the time
>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>> department stores it seems to be lighter because of the numerous
>>>>>>>> florescent
>>>>>>>> lighting but other times i cannot really tell for sure whether i am in
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> lighted room or not. Have you been blind or visually impaired since
>>>>>>>> birth? I
>>>>>>>> have found a slight difference in personality characteristics in
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> blind since birth and those that have become blind in the middle of
>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>> And honestly i have heard of people who wear the dark shades but never
>>>>>>>> personally met anyone that does. Can i ask you why you choose to do
>>>>>>>> so?

>>>>>>>>             -Teal
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:21 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>> Most sighted people just think I am angry or something based off my
>>>>>>>>> facial
>>>>>>>>> expression. I am just neutral, neither happy nor mad or any ware else
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the emotional spectrum. Some people don't like it when I don't
>>>>>>>>> make/keep
>>>>>>>>> eye contact. Sometimes people don't talk to me, because they think I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> too unreadable at times.

>>>>>>>>> As a side note, how do you think wearing dark sunglasses all the time
>>>>>>>>> affects others reaction to you? In my experience my dark glasses and
>>>>>>>>> occasionally emotionless body language create a lot of oukword
>>>>>>>>> situations.


>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:00 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>>> Honestly, yes i have had vision before but my eye movement via TBI
>>>>>>>>>> isnt
>>>>>>>>>> the best however people say through my facial expressions and
>>>>>>>>>> ability

>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> look in the direction of the person thanks to depth perception
>>>>>>>>>> people

>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>> i dont even look blind. I am not sure of what a typical blind person
>>>>>>>>>> looks like but i believe all of these reflexes you are describing
>>>>>>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>> naturally from your environment and maturation during infancy. We
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> actually talking about this in developmental psych. Reflexes like
>>>>>>>>>> reaching, grabbing and walking and talking is a distinct
>>>>>>>>>> developmental
>>>>>>>>>> stage according to piaget. Some say we learn these through
>>>>>>>>>> environment
>>>>>>>>>> and social interaction while others say it is a specific cognative
>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>> in our biological being.

>>>>>>>>>> I agree with yu that it is a very interesting question and this
>>>>>>>>>> topic

>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> a personal interest. As for showing the world when you are pissed
>>>>>>>>>> off

>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> sad or even happy i dont think you learn from actually seeing other
>>>>>>>>>> peoples responses to an action. I believe you learn these emotions
>>>>>>>>>> through personality development of what actions give you these
>>>>>>>>>> feelings,
>>>>>>>>>> then these feelings are visually portrayed naturally.

>>>>>>>>>> Dont quote me on anything, this is my opinion of the answer to your
>>>>>>>>>> question...i am a social work/psychology major

>>>>>>>>>>            -Teal

>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joseph C. Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 5:29 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA256

>>>>>>>>>>> Teal,
>>>>>>>>>>> LOL That's funny. Honestly, I've never had much sight and never had
>>>>>>>>>>> muscle control over my eyes. So I don't know much about looking at
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>> people, eye contact, that sort of thing. I have been told it's
>>>>>>>>>>> disconcerting for a person to never make eye contact, and that it's
>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> more disconcerting for a person to make eye contact constantly and
>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>> break it. I'm afraid I never learned the finer points though.

>>>>>>>>>>> This is somewhat related, and I'd be curious to know what the
>>>>>>>>>>> psychologists and sociologists among you think. I'll need to lay a
>>>>>>>>>>> little ground work for the more general question, so bare with me.
>>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>>> known for some time that my emotions and moods  are communicated
>>>>>>>>>>> visually, at least sometimes. But I had something happen that
>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>> got me curious about trying to find out exactly how it happens. We
>>>>>>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>>>>> router go down in a data center at a company I had been working for
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> few months ago. I'd had a bad day the day before trying to get
>>>>>>>>>>> everything working, and that router went down at about 4 am and
>>>>>>>>>>> took

>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> entire company off the Internet. Well, I came out of my hotel room
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> one of the first things the guy driving me to the data center said
>>>>>>>>>>> was,
>>>>>>>>>>> "wow Joe, you look really pissed off. Like maybe you'd like to kill
>>>>>>>>>>> someone." I hadn't given any hint to being pissed off, though I
>>>>>>>>>>> was.

>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't even aware of it being communicated in my looks, I'd tried
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> look pleasant and ready for another day despite the promise of yet
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> problems.

>>>>>>>>>>> After this, I became curious about exactly how expressive or not I
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> with body language, facial expressions, etc. I asked people who had
>>>>>>>>>>> known me for a while, mainly family members about it and they all
>>>>>>>>>>> said I
>>>>>>>>>>> was in fact expressive visually, at least to a point. My sister
>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> provided a running commentary one day for a few minutes on what my
>>>>>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>>>>>> was doing while conversing with people at her house. So, here's my
>>>>>>>>>>> question.

>>>>>>>>>>> I always thought that at least to a point people learned these
>>>>>>>>>>> expressions and that mostly by observing those around them and
>>>>>>>>>>> learning
>>>>>>>>>>> what they meant. I knew basic stuff like a smile or frown didn't
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> that way, and I could even understand certain reflexive
>>>>>>>>>>> expressions.

>>>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>>>> example, stiffening in response to fear or anger. However, I
>>>>>>>>>>> thought

>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> more detailed stuff, arching eyebrows, moving of the eyes with
>>>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>> expressions, that sort of thing was learned behavior. Well, seeing
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> how I can't see others doing these things and never have been able
>>>>>>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>>>>>> how would I have possibly picked them up? Have any experiments been
>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>> regarding such things? And more interesting... Some stuff, such as
>>>>>>>>>>> nodding, shaking the head, or shrugging, I had to be specifically
>>>>>>>>>>> taught
>>>>>>>>>>> those while I didn't other expressions. Does anyone have any ideas
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> what governs what visual cues are natural or learned in spite of
>>>>>>>>>>> lack of
>>>>>>>>>>> vision and which must be picked up visually?
>>>>>>>>>>> - --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stress (N): The condition that occurs when ones mind overrides the
>>>>>>>>>>> body's natural desire to reach out and slap the hell out of someone
>>>>>>>>>>> who desperately deserves it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>

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>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that
>>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>>> President Barack Obama

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