[nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?

[Jedi]

Harry,

That may be, but it's still no less acceptable to me to be grabbed and 
steered, especially when I can communicate just fine. When I find 
sighted people getting flustered, I tell them to stop, breathe, think 
clearly, then try again. If that doesn't work, I ask them key questions 
that are likely to get me the answers I want. Even less acceptable are 
the times when sighted people grab me thinking I want their help when 
they haven't even asked and just assumed that I did.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> Please do not forget that often when people direct through some 
> physical means, it is simply the best way they know to communicate 
> direction; many people find it tedious to verbally direct someone.  The 
> physical focus with the sighted person is pointing.  Explanations are 
> not given in this context; minimal verbal direction, while maximizing 
> gestures is used.  Likewise, with a blind person, a physical direction 
> to the person's desired course (read: pointing) and minimal verbal 
> direction is used.

> I hope I am making sense to the rest of you; it is logical to me.  A 
> coin always has two sides, a story multiple interpretations, etc...

> Harry


> --- On Thu, 9/24/09, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:

>> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 12:53 AM
>> Why do people think it is okay to
>> touch us when they wouldn't do the same to sighted
>> adults.  I have thought about this a lot and have
>> concluded that part of their minds put us in the same class
>> as small children, so it is okay to touch and direct us as
>> we are semi-helpless and need assistance.

>> Clearly some people don't regard us as independent, fully
>> functional, rights-holding adults.

>> Dave

>> At 12:35 AM 9/23/2009, you wrote:
>>> a couple of things that  were interesting
>> were  the concept of space.
>>> I find so much that  people will grap you
>> and  push you to redirect
>>> you; something  you would clearly not do to a
>> sighted individual.  I
>>> wonder what logical reason
>> people   have cross their minds  to make
>> it
>>> ok. to do something like that.

>>>   As for  people identifying
>> themselves;  some people do a rather good
>>> job of saying   where I've met them (
>> that is   those who don't screw
>>> up my   name
>> lol).   within my time in AmeriCorps,  I
>> would  actually
>>> hold a conversation with someone for  a couple of
>> minutes and  within
>>> this conversation I could  figure out  what
>> project  they had, what
>>> team they were on, and by doing so I was able to
>> successfully id  the
>>> person.  So the only way  I
>> think  this relates back, is sometimes
>>> you just have to kind of   make a
>> person talk  a bit  and you'll
>>> probably find out who it is if you have time to.

>>> On 9/22/09, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Hello All.
>>>> I have not been following this thread faithfully,
>> however, I just
>>>> schemed through and found some very interesting
>> questions that are
>>>> actually not unique in this setting. I am a
>> psychology major at Emory
>>>> University, where research is our middle name!
>> Thus, some of this
>>>> facial expression experiments have been conducted
>> here. but I will
>>>> just talk about a very classic experiment
>> by Paul Ekman.
>>>> Paul Ekman took videos of 100s of remote cultures
>> from all around the
>>>> world. He took clips of those videos and
>> classified the facial
>>>> expression, by categorizing what muscles in the
>> face were used to make
>>>> those expressions. As he watched more and more
>> clipse he determined a
>>>> clear pattern of emotions, of people across
>> cultures who had never met
>>>> each other, some of which had not tv or access to
>> the outside world,
>>>> and who had radically different customs and
>> traditions.
>>>> He then took pictures of different faces and
>> asked others what emotion
>>>> the subject in the picture was experiencing. He
>> discovered that for
>>>> the most part most people could tell what the
>> picture was showing.
>>>> Thus, he came up with a few basic emotions which
>> are:
>>>> Anger
>>>> Disgust
>>>> Fear
>>>> Happiness
>>>> Sadness
>>>> Surprise
>>>> Later, in 1992, he added to the list, disgust,
>> contempt, pride,
>>>> excitement, embarrassment, guilt,  relief,
>> satisfaction, sensory
>>>> pleasure and shame. I think i got them all. All
>> this is to say, that
>>>> facial expression are not cultural or learned
>> behavior, but rather
>>>> biological. Thus, as a blind person, our face
>> reflect at the very
>>>> least these emotions that I listed. The only
>> difference is that we are
>>>> not readily conscious of how we make these face
>> of guilt for example.
>>>> Sighted people can look in the mirror and
>> practice looking ashamed, it
>>>> is a certain slant of the eyes, a certain
>> lowering of the brows, we
>>>> have to think about it and consciously make an
>> effort if we want to
>>>> become proficient at making these expressions at
>> will. I am a
>>>> performer as well, and one of the big things I
>> work on is facial
>>>> expression, how do I consciously convey to the
>> audience what I'm
>>>> feeling? It takes practice but it is doable. And
>> it is a valid skill
>>>> to learn, since sometimes we want to hide a
>> little bit that anger we
>>>> fell towards our manager! Ok, my answer was a
>> little long.
>>>> But all this is to merely say, that when you are
>> pissed off, it will
>>>> show on your face. Smile. If you however, do not
>> show any facial
>>>> expression or significantly lack body language,
>> this is not do to
>>>> being blind and not having learned expressions,
>> it is rather a
>>>> personality thing, and it probably just means
>> that you are much more
>>>> cool-headed, and get less easily aroused than
>> most people.
>>>> Mary

>>>> On 9/22/09, Teal Bloodworth <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Right i have no usable vision. Not all blind
>> people are socially awkwad if
>>>>> they are blind from birth. I agree with you
>> that explaining is basically a
>>>>> waste of time. I am saying this guy brought
>> questions to my mind....is it
>>>>> harder to lose your vision mid life or to
>> never have it to lose? Things
>>>>> like
>>>>> this and if one has been sheltered either
>> sighted or not they are going to
>>>>> have a bit of social awkwardness. This guy
>> had never really been around
>>>>> people without knowing how to act.


>>    -Teal
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations:
>> What would you do?


>>>>>> I hope you are not implying that all
>> people that have been blind since
>>>>>> birth are socially awkward. I may not have
>> lots of sighted friends, but
>>>>>> this is not due to me not knowing how to
>> act. Also when people concitter
>>>>>> themselves blind it does not meen that
>> they see absolootly nothing. I have
>>>>>> a little bit of usable vision, but not
>> enough to do much with and when
>>>>>> people ask I say I am blind. I don't
>> bother with attempting to explain the
>>>>>> miniscule amount of vision I have, it just
>> confuses people.

>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind
>> Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:29
>> PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations:
>> What would you do?


>>>>>>> well honestly i have only been around
>> one guy totally blind since birth
>>>>>>> and he was socially awkward. When he
>> was happy or excited he would do a
>>>>>>> wiggling of the butt up against
>> someone and would giggle like a child
>>>>>>> when he was 27. I think he was
>> sheltered his whole life by his parents
>>>>>>> since he was adopted and the only
>> blind/V.I. in the house. I guess this
>>>>>>> gave me an indifferent impression.

>>>>>>> Another guy with retina problems can
>> see like looking through a straw
>>>>>>> and

>>>>>>> was a senior in college trying to be
>> a priest. He is probably my hero
>>>>>>> and

>>>>>>> gave me some saying i will use in the
>> future.


>>   -Teal
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:50
>> PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
>> Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>> Teal,

>>>>>>>> I don't know which blind guys
>> you're hanging with, but I don't notice
>>>>>>>> too much difference between those
>> born blind versus those who had sight
>>>>>>>> at some point. Fundamentally,
>> there is no significant personality
>>>>>>>> differences between the two. Life
>> experiences may vary, and life
>>>>>>>> experiences shape our
>> perceptions, but not so much so that it
>>>>>>>> fundamentally changes an
>> individual on such a deep level. That is,
>>>>>>>> unless they let it.

>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>> Jedi


>>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>>> you dont show any emotion? I
>> am sorry but that is hard to
>>>>>>>>> believe....maybe
>>>>>>>>> the facial expression you do
>> show is presumibly unfriendly?

>>>>>>>>> As for them not talking to
>> you that is rediculus. The dark shades is
>>>>>>>>> alittle
>>>>>>>>> stereotipical for me but i
>> oddly keep my eyes open....Not sure why and
>>>>>>>>> i say
>>>>>>>>> i am totally blind but i dont
>> just see darkness. This is probably a
>>>>>>>>> psychological factor in that
>> i see a type of gray scale all the time
>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>> department stores it seems to
>> be lighter because of the numerous
>>>>>>>>> florescent
>>>>>>>>> lighting but other times i
>> cannot really tell for sure whether i am in
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> lighted room or not. Have you
>> been blind or visually impaired since
>>>>>>>>> birth? I
>>>>>>>>> have found a slight
>> difference in personality characteristics in
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> blind since birth and those
>> that have become blind in the middle of
>>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>> And honestly i have heard of
>> people who wear the dark shades but never
>>>>>>>>> personally met anyone that
>> does. Can i ask you why you choose to do
>>>>>>>>> so?


>>      -Teal
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan"
>> <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of
>> Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 20,
>> 2009 8:21 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
>> Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>>> Most sighted people just
>> think I am angry or something based off my
>>>>>>>>>> facial
>>>>>>>>>> expression. I am just
>> neutral, neither happy nor mad or any ware else
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> the emotional spectrum.
>> Some people don't like it when I don't
>>>>>>>>>> make/keep
>>>>>>>>>> eye contact. Sometimes
>> people don't talk to me, because they think I
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> too unreadable at times.

>>>>>>>>>> As a side note, how do
>> you think wearing dark sunglasses all the time
>>>>>>>>>> affects others reaction
>> to you? In my experience my dark glasses and
>>>>>>>>>> occasionally emotionless
>> body language create a lot of oukword
>>>>>>>>>> situations.


>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message
>> -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth"
>> <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association
>> of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September
>> 20, 2009 9:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
>> Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly, yes i have
>> had vision before but my eye movement via TBI
>>>>>>>>>>> isnt
>>>>>>>>>>> the best however
>> people say through my facial expressions and
>>>>>>>>>>> ability

>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> look in the direction
>> of the person thanks to depth perception
>>>>>>>>>>> people

>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>> i dont even look
>> blind. I am not sure of what a typical blind person
>>>>>>>>>>> looks like but i
>> believe all of these reflexes you are describing
>>>>>>>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>>> naturally from your
>> environment and maturation during infancy. We
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> actually talking
>> about this in developmental psych. Reflexes like
>>>>>>>>>>> reaching, grabbing
>> and walking and talking is a distinct
>>>>>>>>>>> developmental
>>>>>>>>>>> stage according to
>> piaget. Some say we learn these through
>>>>>>>>>>> environment
>>>>>>>>>>> and social
>> interaction while others say it is a specific cognative
>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>> in our biological
>> being.

>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with yu that
>> it is a very interesting question and this
>>>>>>>>>>> topic

>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> a personal interest.
>> As for showing the world when you are pissed
>>>>>>>>>>> off

>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> sad or even happy i
>> dont think you learn from actually seeing other
>>>>>>>>>>> peoples responses to
>> an action. I believe you learn these emotions
>>>>>>>>>>> through personality
>> development of what actions give you these
>>>>>>>>>>> feelings,
>>>>>>>>>>> then these feelings
>> are visually portrayed naturally.

>>>>>>>>>>> Dont quote me on
>> anything, this is my opinion of the answer to your
>>>>>>>>>>> question...i am a
>> social work/psychology major


>>       -Teal

>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
>> Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joseph C.
>> Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
>> September 20, 2009 5:29 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
>> Awkward Situations: What would you do?


>>>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP
>> SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA256

>>>>>>>>>>>> Teal,
>>>>>>>>>>>> LOL That's funny.
>> Honestly, I've never had much sight and never had
>>>>>>>>>>>> muscle control
>> over my eyes. So I don't know much about looking at
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>> people, eye
>> contact, that sort of thing. I have been told it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> disconcerting for
>> a person to never make eye contact, and that it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>> disconcerting for a person to make eye contact constantly
>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>> break it. I'm
>> afraid I never learned the finer points though.

>>>>>>>>>>>> This is somewhat
>> related, and I'd be curious to know what the
>>>>>>>>>>>> psychologists and
>> sociologists among you think. I'll need to lay a
>>>>>>>>>>>> little ground
>> work for the more general question, so bare with me.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>>>> known for some
>> time that my emotions and moods  are communicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> visually, at
>> least sometimes. But I had something happen that
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> got me curious
>> about trying to find out exactly how it happens. We
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>>>>>> router go down in
>> a data center at a company I had been working for
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> few months ago.
>> I'd had a bad day the day before trying to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> everything
>> working, and that router went down at about 4 am and
>>>>>>>>>>>> took

>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> entire company
>> off the Internet. Well, I came out of my hotel room
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the first
>> things the guy driving me to the data center said
>>>>>>>>>>>> was,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "wow Joe, you
>> look really pissed off. Like maybe you'd like to kill
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone." I
>> hadn't given any hint to being pissed off, though I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was.

>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't even aware
>> of it being communicated in my looks, I'd tried
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> look pleasant and
>> ready for another day despite the promise of yet
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems.

>>>>>>>>>>>> After this, I
>> became curious about exactly how expressive or not I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> with body
>> language, facial expressions, etc. I asked people who had
>>>>>>>>>>>> known me for a
>> while, mainly family members about it and they all
>>>>>>>>>>>> said I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was in fact
>> expressive visually, at least to a point. My sister
>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>> provided a
>> running commentary one day for a few minutes on what my
>>>>>>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>>>>>>> was doing while
>> conversing with people at her house. So, here's my
>>>>>>>>>>>> question.

>>>>>>>>>>>> I always thought
>> that at least to a point people learned these
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressions and
>> that mostly by observing those around them and
>>>>>>>>>>>> learning
>>>>>>>>>>>> what they meant.
>> I knew basic stuff like a smile or frown didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>> that way, and I
>> could even understand certain reflexive
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressions.

>>>>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>>>>> example,
>> stiffening in response to fear or anger. However, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought

>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> more detailed
>> stuff, arching eyebrows, moving of the eyes with
>>>>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressions, that
>> sort of thing was learned behavior. Well, seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> how I can't see
>> others doing these things and never have been able
>>>>>>>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>>>>>>> how would I have
>> possibly picked them up? Have any experiments been
>>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding such
>> things? And more interesting... Some stuff, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>> nodding, shaking
>> the head, or shrugging, I had to be specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>> taught
>>>>>>>>>>>> those while I
>> didn't other expressions. Does anyone have any ideas
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> what governs what
>> visual cues are natural or learned in spite of
>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>> vision and which
>> must be picked up visually?
>>>>>>>>>>>> - --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stress (N): The
>> condition that occurs when ones mind overrides the
>>>>>>>>>>>> body's natural
>> desire to reach out and slap the hell out of someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> who desperately
>> deserves it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph C.
>> Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>

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>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>> 30322
>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we
>> understand that
>>>> greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
>>>> President Barack Obama

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