[nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?

Thu Sep 24 22:04:30 UTC 2009

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate!

Serena

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Hogue" <harryhogue at yahoo.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?

Please do not forget that often when people direct through some physical 
means, it is simply the best way they know to communicate direction; many 
people find it tedious to verbally direct someone.  The physical focus with 
the sighted person is pointing.  Explanations are not given in this context; 
minimal verbal direction, while maximizing gestures is used.  Likewise, with 
a blind person, a physical direction to the person's desired course (read: 
pointing) and minimal verbal direction is used.

I hope I am making sense to the rest of you; it is logical to me.  A coin 
always has two sides, a story multiple interpretations, etc...

Harry

--- On Thu, 9/24/09, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:

> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 12:53 AM
> Why do people think it is okay to
> touch us when they wouldn't do the same to sighted
> adults. I have thought about this a lot and have
> concluded that part of their minds put us in the same class
> as small children, so it is okay to touch and direct us as
> we are semi-helpless and need assistance.
>
> Clearly some people don't regard us as independent, fully
> functional, rights-holding adults.
>
> Dave
>
> At 12:35 AM 9/23/2009, you wrote:
> > a couple of things that were interesting
> were the concept of space.
> > I find so much that people will grap you
> and push you to redirect
> > you; something you would clearly not do to a
> sighted individual. I
> > wonder what logical reason
> people have cross their minds to make
> it
> > ok. to do something like that.
> >
> > As for people identifying
> themselves; some people do a rather good
> > job of saying where I've met them (
> that is those who don't screw
> > up my name
> lol). within my time in AmeriCorps, I
> would actually
> > hold a conversation with someone for a couple of
> minutes and within
> > this conversation I could figure out what
> project they had, what
> > team they were on, and by doing so I was able to
> successfully id the
> > person. So the only way I
> think this relates back, is sometimes
> > you just have to kind of make a
> person talk a bit and you'll
> > probably find out who it is if you have time to.
> >
> > On 9/22/09, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Hello All.
> > > I have not been following this thread faithfully,
> however, I just
> > > schemed through and found some very interesting
> questions that are
> > > actually not unique in this setting. I am a
> psychology major at Emory
> > > University, where research is our middle name!
> Thus, some of this
> > > facial expression experiments have been conducted
> here. but I will
> > > just talk about a very classic experiment
> by Paul Ekman.
> > > Paul Ekman took videos of 100s of remote cultures
> from all around the
> > > world. He took clips of those videos and
> classified the facial
> > > expression, by categorizing what muscles in the
> face were used to make
> > > those expressions. As he watched more and more
> clipse he determined a
> > > clear pattern of emotions, of people across
> cultures who had never met
> > > each other, some of which had not tv or access to
> the outside world,
> > > and who had radically different customs and
> traditions.
> > > He then took pictures of different faces and
> asked others what emotion
> > > the subject in the picture was experiencing. He
> discovered that for
> > > the most part most people could tell what the
> picture was showing.
> > > Thus, he came up with a few basic emotions which
> are:
> > > Anger
> > > Disgust
> > > Fear
> > > Happiness
> > > Sadness
> > > Surprise
> > > Later, in 1992, he added to the list, disgust,
> contempt, pride,
> > > excitement, embarrassment, guilt, relief,
> satisfaction, sensory
> > > pleasure and shame. I think i got them all. All
> this is to say, that
> > > facial expression are not cultural or learned
> behavior, but rather
> > > biological. Thus, as a blind person, our face
> reflect at the very
> > > least these emotions that I listed. The only
> difference is that we are
> > > not readily conscious of how we make these face
> of guilt for example.
> > > Sighted people can look in the mirror and
> practice looking ashamed, it
> > > is a certain slant of the eyes, a certain
> lowering of the brows, we
> > > have to think about it and consciously make an
> effort if we want to
> > > become proficient at making these expressions at
> will. I am a
> > > performer as well, and one of the big things I
> work on is facial
> > > expression, how do I consciously convey to the
> audience what I'm
> > > feeling? It takes practice but it is doable. And
> it is a valid skill
> > > to learn, since sometimes we want to hide a
> little bit that anger we
> > > fell towards our manager! Ok, my answer was a
> little long.
> > > But all this is to merely say, that when you are
> pissed off, it will
> > > show on your face. Smile. If you however, do not
> show any facial
> > > expression or significantly lack body language,
> this is not do to
> > > being blind and not having learned expressions,
> it is rather a
> > > personality thing, and it probably just means
> that you are much more
> > > cool-headed, and get less easily aroused than
> most people.
> > > Mary
> > >
> > > On 9/22/09, Teal Bloodworth <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> Right i have no usable vision. Not all blind
> people are socially awkwad if
> > >> they are blind from birth. I agree with you
> that explaining is basically a
> > >> waste of time. I am saying this guy brought
> questions to my mind....is it
> > >> harder to lose your vision mid life or to
> never have it to lose? Things
> > >> like
> > >> this and if one has been sheltered either
> sighted or not they are going to
> > >> have a bit of social awkwardness. This guy
> had never really been around
> > >> people without knowing how to act.
> > >>
> > >>
> -Teal
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"
> > >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:30 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations:
> What would you do?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I hope you are not implying that all
> people that have been blind since
> > >>>birth are socially awkward. I may not have
> lots of sighted friends, but
> > >>>this is not due to me not knowing how to
> act. Also when people concitter
> > >>>themselves blind it does not meen that
> they see absolootly nothing. I have
> > >>>a little bit of usable vision, but not
> enough to do much with and when
> > >>>people ask I say I am blind. I don't
> bother with attempting to explain the
> > >>>miniscule amount of vision I have, it just
> confuses people.
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "Teal Bloodworth" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> > >>> To: "National Association of Blind
> Students mailing list"
> > >>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:29
> PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations:
> What would you do?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> well honestly i have only been around
> one guy totally blind since birth
> > >>>> and he was socially awkward. When he
> was happy or excited he would do a
> > >>>> wiggling of the butt up against
> someone and would giggle like a child
> > >>>> when he was 27. I think he was
> sheltered his whole life by his parents
> > >>>> since he was adopted and the only
> blind/V.I. in the house. I guess this
> > >>>> gave me an indifferent impression.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Another guy with retina problems can
> see like looking through a straw
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>
> > >>>> was a senior in college trying to be
> a priest. He is probably my hero
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>
> > >>>> gave me some saying i will use in the
> future.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> -Teal
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> > >>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:50
> PM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
> Situations: What would you do?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Teal,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I don't know which blind guys
> you're hanging with, but I don't notice
> > >>>>> too much difference between those
> born blind versus those who had sight
> > >>>>> at some point. Fundamentally,
> there is no significant personality
> > >>>>> differences between the two. Life
> experiences may vary, and life
> > >>>>> experiences shape our
> perceptions, but not so much so that it
> > >>>>> fundamentally changes an
> individual on such a deep level. That is,
> > >>>>> unless they let it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Respectfully,
> > >>>>> Jedi
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Original message:
> > >>>>>> you dont show any emotion? I
> am sorry but that is hard to
> > >>>>>> believe....maybe
> > >>>>>> the facial expression you do
> show is presumibly unfriendly?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> As for them not talking to
> you that is rediculus. The dark shades is
> > >>>>>> alittle
> > >>>>>> stereotipical for me but i
> oddly keep my eyes open....Not sure why and
> > >>>>>> i say
> > >>>>>> i am totally blind but i dont
> just see darkness. This is probably a
> > >>>>>> psychological factor in that
> i see a type of gray scale all the time
> > >>>>>> and in
> > >>>>>> department stores it seems to
> be lighter because of the numerous
> > >>>>>> florescent
> > >>>>>> lighting but other times i
> cannot really tell for sure whether i am in
> > >>>>>> a
> > >>>>>> lighted room or not. Have you
> been blind or visually impaired since
> > >>>>>> birth? I
> > >>>>>> have found a slight
> difference in personality characteristics in
> > >>>>>> people
> > >>>>>> blind since birth and those
> that have become blind in the middle of
> > >>>>>> life.
> > >>>>>> And honestly i have heard of
> people who wear the dark shades but never
> > >>>>>> personally met anyone that
> does. Can i ask you why you choose to do
> > >>>>>> so?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> -Teal
> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan"
> <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> To: "National Association of
> Blind Students mailing list"
> > >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 20,
> 2009 8:21 PM
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
> Situations: What would you do?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Most sighted people just
> think I am angry or something based off my
> > >>>>>>> facial
> > >>>>>>> expression. I am just
> neutral, neither happy nor mad or any ware else
> > >>>>>>> on
> > >>>>>>> the emotional spectrum.
> Some people don't like it when I don't
> > >>>>>>> make/keep
> > >>>>>>> eye contact. Sometimes
> people don't talk to me, because they think I
> > >>>>>>> am
> > >>>>>>> too unreadable at times.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> As a side note, how do
> you think wearing dark sunglasses all the time
> > >>>>>>> affects others reaction
> to you? In my experience my dark glasses and
> > >>>>>>> occasionally emotionless
> body language create a lot of oukword
> > >>>>>>> situations.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message
> -----
> > >>>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth"
> <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> To: "National Association
> of Blind Students mailing list"
> > >>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September
> 20, 2009 9:00 PM
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
> Awkward Situations: What would you do?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Honestly, yes i have
> had vision before but my eye movement via TBI
> > >>>>>>>> isnt
> > >>>>>>>> the best however
> people say through my facial expressions and
> > >>>>>>>> ability
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> look in the direction
> of the person thanks to depth perception
> > >>>>>>>> people
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> say
> > >>>>>>>> i dont even look
> blind. I am not sure of what a typical blind person
> > >>>>>>>> looks like but i
> believe all of these reflexes you are describing
> > >>>>>>>> comes
> > >>>>>>>> naturally from your
> environment and maturation during infancy. We
> > >>>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>> actually talking
> about this in developmental psych. Reflexes like
> > >>>>>>>> reaching, grabbing
> and walking and talking is a distinct
> > >>>>>>>> developmental
> > >>>>>>>> stage according to
> piaget. Some say we learn these through
> > >>>>>>>> environment
> > >>>>>>>> and social
> interaction while others say it is a specific cognative
> > >>>>>>>> change
> > >>>>>>>> in our biological
> being.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I agree with yu that
> it is a very interesting question and this
> > >>>>>>>> topic
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>> a personal interest.
> As for showing the world when you are pissed
> > >>>>>>>> off
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>>> sad or even happy i
> dont think you learn from actually seeing other
> > >>>>>>>> peoples responses to
> an action. I believe you learn these emotions
> > >>>>>>>> through personality
> development of what actions give you these
> > >>>>>>>> feelings,
> > >>>>>>>> then these feelings
> are visually portrayed naturally.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Dont quote me on
> anything, this is my opinion of the answer to your
> > >>>>>>>> question...i am a
> social work/psychology major
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> -Teal
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ----- Original
> Message -----
> > >>>>>>>> From: "Joseph C.
> Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> > >>>>>>>> To: "National
> Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > >>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
> September 20, 2009 5:29 PM
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
> Awkward Situations: What would you do?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP
> SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA256
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Teal,
> > >>>>>>>>> LOL That's funny.
> Honestly, I've never had much sight and never had
> > >>>>>>>>> muscle control
> over my eyes. So I don't know much about looking at
> > >>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>> people, eye
> contact, that sort of thing. I have been told it's
> > >>>>>>>>> disconcerting for
> a person to never make eye contact, and that it's
> > >>>>>>>>> even
> > >>>>>>>>> more
> disconcerting for a person to make eye contact constantly
> and
> > >>>>>>>>> never
> > >>>>>>>>> break it. I'm
> afraid I never learned the finer points though.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> This is somewhat
> related, and I'd be curious to know what the
> > >>>>>>>>> psychologists and
> sociologists among you think. I'll need to lay a
> > >>>>>>>>> little ground
> work for the more general question, so bare with me.
> > >>>>>>>>> I've
> > >>>>>>>>> known for some
> time that my emotions and moods are communicated
> > >>>>>>>>> visually, at
> least sometimes. But I had something happen that
> > >>>>>>>>> actually
> > >>>>>>>>> got me curious
> about trying to find out exactly how it happens. We
> > >>>>>>>>> had a
> > >>>>>>>>> router go down in
> a data center at a company I had been working for
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>> few months ago.
> I'd had a bad day the day before trying to get
> > >>>>>>>>> everything
> working, and that router went down at about 4 am and
> > >>>>>>>>> took
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> entire company
> off the Internet. Well, I came out of my hotel room
> > >>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>> one of the first
> things the guy driving me to the data center said
> > >>>>>>>>> was,
> > >>>>>>>>> "wow Joe, you
> look really pissed off. Like maybe you'd like to kill
> > >>>>>>>>> someone." I
> hadn't given any hint to being pissed off, though I
> > >>>>>>>>> was.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>>>> wasn't even aware
> of it being communicated in my looks, I'd tried
> > >>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>> look pleasant and
> ready for another day despite the promise of yet
> > >>>>>>>>> more
> > >>>>>>>>> problems.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> After this, I
> became curious about exactly how expressive or not I
> > >>>>>>>>> was
> > >>>>>>>>> with body
> language, facial expressions, etc. I asked people who had
> > >>>>>>>>> known me for a
> while, mainly family members about it and they all
> > >>>>>>>>> said I
> > >>>>>>>>> was in fact
> expressive visually, at least to a point. My sister
> > >>>>>>>>> even
> > >>>>>>>>> provided a
> running commentary one day for a few minutes on what my
> > >>>>>>>>> face
> > >>>>>>>>> was doing while
> conversing with people at her house. So, here's my
> > >>>>>>>>> question.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I always thought
> that at least to a point people learned these
> > >>>>>>>>> expressions and
> that mostly by observing those around them and
> > >>>>>>>>> learning
> > >>>>>>>>> what they meant.
> I knew basic stuff like a smile or frown didn't
> > >>>>>>>>> work
> > >>>>>>>>> that way, and I
> could even understand certain reflexive
> > >>>>>>>>> expressions.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> For
> > >>>>>>>>> example,
> stiffening in response to fear or anger. However, I
> > >>>>>>>>> thought
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> more detailed
> stuff, arching eyebrows, moving of the eyes with
> > >>>>>>>>> certain
> > >>>>>>>>> expressions, that
> sort of thing was learned behavior. Well, seeing
> > >>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>> how I can't see
> others doing these things and never have been able
> > >>>>>>>>> to,
> > >>>>>>>>> how would I have
> possibly picked them up? Have any experiments been
> > >>>>>>>>> done
> > >>>>>>>>> regarding such
> things? And more interesting... Some stuff, such as
> > >>>>>>>>> nodding, shaking
> the head, or shrugging, I had to be specifically
> > >>>>>>>>> taught
> > >>>>>>>>> those while I
> didn't other expressions. Does anyone have any ideas
> > >>>>>>>>> on
> > >>>>>>>>> what governs what
> visual cues are natural or learned in spite of
> > >>>>>>>>> lack of
> > >>>>>>>>> vision and which
> must be picked up visually?
> > >>>>>>>>> - --
> > >>>>>>>>> Stress (N): The
> condition that occurs when ones mind overrides the
> > >>>>>>>>> body's natural
> desire to reach out and slap the hell out of someone
> > >>>>>>>>> who desperately
> deserves it.
> > >>>>>>>>> Joseph C.
> Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mary Fernandez
> > > Emory University 2012
> > > P.O. Box 123056
> > > Atlanta Ga.
> > > 30322
> > > Phone: 732-857-7004
> > > In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we
> understand that
> > > greatness is never a given. It must be earned.
> > > President Barack Obama
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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