[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Jedi loneblindjedi at samobile.net
Tue Aug 17 03:08:36 UTC 2010


By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially 
aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in 
the classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that 
sight is required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That 
probably wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but 
the dog training school would definitely be problematic for that 
reason. It would be like saying that a blind person can be a cane 
travel teacher and monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for 
a sighted person to come along to monitor the student visually. Also, 
by asking for a sighted person to tag along, the issue of non-visual 
access to the training doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and 
the status quo remains. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds 
counterintuitive to what you're trying to advocate.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just 
> to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i 
> would think.  It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could 
> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to 
> give me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

> Thank you for your feedback.

> Val
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the 
>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets 
>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi

>>> Original message:
>>>> Greetings all,

>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.

>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>> Val!

>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>> Justin

>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

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