[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Valerie Gibson valandkayla at gmail.com
Tue Aug 17 03:59:19 UTC 2010


I agree that you don't need vision to be able to see if a dog is behaving agressively. i've grown up with as many as 13 dogs at a time. my point is, if i'm going to continue to get negative fedback from the school, i could find an alternative way to become a dog trainer.
On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

> Hello Valerie and everyone,
> 
>    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider 
> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or 
> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this 
> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors can 
> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has 
> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors. People 
> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe 
> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
> 
>    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with 
> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle 
> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers before 
> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to 
> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this 
> helps.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and i 
> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to look 
> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, for 
> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing when 
> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back. 
> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the 
> dog is doing.
> 
> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not 
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test, 
> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that 
> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
> 
> So the way i se it, i have two options:
> 
> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon 
> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40  to 
> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt. 
> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits of 
> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 300 
> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal 
> shelters.
> 
> or
> 
> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many 
> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can, 
> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer at 
> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to 
> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was talking 
> about.
> 
> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
> 
> Val
> 
> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> 
>> Valerie,
>> 
>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how 
>> to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed 
>> a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious 
>> all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With 
>> something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.
>> 
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.
>> 
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>> 
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>> 
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> 
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>> 
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>> 
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.
>>> 
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> Val!
>>> 
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>> 
>>>>>> Justin
>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>> 
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>> 
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
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