[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Valerie Gibson valandkayla at gmail.com
Tue Aug 17 04:16:57 UTC 2010


I would like to commend meghan on her analogy of a dog to a deaf person, as that is what i was going for when i brought up the idea of having a sighted person to come along and tell me what the dog is doing.

Dogs don't just chillax onemoment and jump up and lunge at you at the next instant. there are cues that the dog would give.

And who knows, i may decide for the first year or so that i do not want to train agressive dogs, but for the purpose of the school, i need some ideas.

I had an akita, who passed away last week at the age of 11. When he was a puppy, we took him to obediance classes.  If anyone knows dogs, you'll know thatan akita is known to be fierce, loyal, and yes prone to violence when not properly socialized.  Because i worked with him, he never had a problem with violence.  My trainer was the type who trained me to train the dog, so i do know blind people can train obediance.

As i have said before, and as meghan pointed out, i would be using a sighted person to tell me what the dog is doing, very similar to an interpreter.
I asked you guys about that idea to see if it was a good one, not to advocate that blind people couldn't train.  I also asked that question so that maybe someone would have a better idea.  Right now, i'm only hearing how i'm hearing a bit how my idea was a bad one.

As i have said in my last email, i am trying to search for blind trainers to seek thier advice as well, and i am also registering for some dog training mailing lists to see if even a sighted person is willing ot think out of the box for this one.

If anyone knows of a blind trainer, or even a sighted one, hwho is willing to help me out, i would love to hear from them, or if anyone has any creative ideas, i'm listening.

I again thank you for all of your help and constructive critism thus far. Keep the comments coming. :)
Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Marc Workman wrote:

> I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do. However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog trainer.
> 
> Marc
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
>> I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be. Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of creativity on my part.
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I don't
>>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>> 
>>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues that
>>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to figure
>>> out obstacle with a cane.
>> 
>>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification is
>>> needed.
>> 
>>> Meghan
>>> I'm
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> 
>>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It would
>>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a sighted
>>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying to
>>>> advocate.
>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering
>>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think.
>>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>> 
>>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give
>>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>> 
>>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>> 
>>>>> Val
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>>> students.
>> 
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>> 
>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>> 
>>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>> 
>>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>> 
>>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>>> you.
>> 
>>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Val!
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Justin
>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer
>>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll
>>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters. So
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>> 
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>> 
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