[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Peter Donahue pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net
Tue Aug 17 04:18:15 UTC 2010


Hello Mark and everyone,

    You can also use environmental queues to gather much of the same 
information.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering
arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do
completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really
requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few
things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do.
However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and
training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to
describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though
you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of
the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but
the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a
fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog
trainer.

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be.
>Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe
>that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane
>independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to
>maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are
>as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or
>teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding
>the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in
>every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual
>techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't
>be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision
>is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support
>the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of
>non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's
>important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight
>before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in
>a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of
>creativity on my part.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I
>> don't
>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>
>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues
>> that
>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to
>> figure
>> out obstacle with a cane.
>
>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification
>> is
>> needed.
>
>> Meghan
>> I'm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It
>>> would
>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a
>>> sighted
>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying
>>> to
>>> advocate.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>>> altering
>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would
>>>> think.
>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to
>>>> give
>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>>>> Val
>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>> students.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared.
>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>> you.
>
>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog
>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time
>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school,
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
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>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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