[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Tue Aug 17 04:12:35 UTC 2010

Hello Meghan and everyone,

    As was true last week please read my messages carefully. I knew of a 
blind person who successfully trained police and guide dogs and had 
nonvisual ways of reading aggressiveness in a dog. I'm not sure if this 
gentleman is still alive let alone training dogs. In addition to being blind 
he also had seizures.

    I also grew up in a home we shared with 14 Boxer dogs plus brood stock 
that lived in several kennels. I came to know each dog's disposition and 
temprament using various nonvisual techniques to judge what kind of day they 
were having, who was friendly, and who should be delt with caution. If I 
needed to deal with one of the more aggressive dogs I handled him/her 
myself.

    Clipper was a very quiet house dog who would let you pet him or do 
whatever else you wanted to do to him. I always knew when he was sleeping 
because he had a unique snore. Honeyboy on the other hand would let you know 
on no uncertain terms that his body belonged to him and that he was the 
boss! He lived in one of the kennels and was very lively. His behavior let 
me know both nonvisually as well as letting others know visually that he was 
a male dog to be handled with caution.

    Dutchis was one of our brood bitches who gave birth to four pups in 
1964. She along with several other dogs in the breeding stock would not 
allow just anyone to handle her puppies. Her growl was venomous if you bent 
over her to touch her pups. Eventually I discovered that by talking to her 
gently and patting her away from the litter she became easier for me to read 
and handle something any sighted dog trainer would do. By observing her 
breathing, her pulse, and how she behaved around me I knew she was gaining 
confidence in me. Soon I was able to approach her and the pups without her 
becoming protective. When her breating and pulse were normal I knew she was 
relaxed and could handle the pups safely.
    Hence it's possible to work with all types of dogs without vision. 
Perhaps others on the list can share their alternative techniques used when 
managing dogs and other animals to give Valerie the information she needs to 
encourage these organizations to allow her to prove herself.

    Peter Donahue who will soon be writing to you from the Acacia.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Peter:

Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog
is giving a whale eye.  There are some dogs who do not make a sound before
making an agressive move.  There are a series of visual indicators before a
dog begins barking and/or growling.

I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs.  I live with a fear
agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure
there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had
been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.

The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far
from rubbish.  Dogs are very visual animals.  There are so many nuances of
their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a
well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up
on.

This is actually something I too would love to do for a living.  I was going
to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the
restrictions.  Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.

Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are
seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to
finding within the NFB.

Take care,
Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>
>    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors
> can
> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors.
> People
> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>
>    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers
> before
> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
> Joe,
>
> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and
> i
> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to
> look
> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations,
> for
> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing
> when
> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
> dog is doing.
>
> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test,
> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>
> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>
> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon
> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40
> to
> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits
> of
> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and
> 300
> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
> shelters.
>
> or
>
> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many
> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer
> at
> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was
> talking
> about.
>
> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>
> Val
>
> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Valerie,
>>
>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>> to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you
>> needed
>> a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>> all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With
>> something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.
>>
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.
>>
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.
>>>
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Val!
>>>
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
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