[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Valerie Gibson
valandkayla at gmail.com
Tue Aug 17 06:33:57 UTC 2010
Peter,
Thank you so much for sharing. As i have said, my idea of having a sighted person to tell mewhat'sgoing on
visually may not have been the best idea, and i was not trying to come across as to say that blindpeople could not train.
It is good to hear of ways people communicate with their pets, as that willbe a great help.
Most of my own pets, i've raised from pupyhood, and evenbreeds that are known for agression never had a problem.
thank you for your story.
ValOn Aug 16, 2010, at 11:12 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
> Hello Meghan and everyone,
>
> As was true last week please read my messages carefully. I knew of a
> blind person who successfully trained police and guide dogs and had
> nonvisual ways of reading aggressiveness in a dog. I'm not sure if this
> gentleman is still alive let alone training dogs. In addition to being blind
> he also had seizures.
>
> I also grew up in a home we shared with 14 Boxer dogs plus brood stock
> that lived in several kennels. I came to know each dog's disposition and
> temprament using various nonvisual techniques to judge what kind of day they
> were having, who was friendly, and who should be delt with caution. If I
> needed to deal with one of the more aggressive dogs I handled him/her
> myself.
>
> Clipper was a very quiet house dog who would let you pet him or do
> whatever else you wanted to do to him. I always knew when he was sleeping
> because he had a unique snore. Honeyboy on the other hand would let you know
> on no uncertain terms that his body belonged to him and that he was the
> boss! He lived in one of the kennels and was very lively. His behavior let
> me know both nonvisually as well as letting others know visually that he was
> a male dog to be handled with caution.
>
> Dutchis was one of our brood bitches who gave birth to four pups in
> 1964. She along with several other dogs in the breeding stock would not
> allow just anyone to handle her puppies. Her growl was venomous if you bent
> over her to touch her pups. Eventually I discovered that by talking to her
> gently and patting her away from the litter she became easier for me to read
> and handle something any sighted dog trainer would do. By observing her
> breathing, her pulse, and how she behaved around me I knew she was gaining
> confidence in me. Soon I was able to approach her and the pups without her
> becoming protective. When her breating and pulse were normal I knew she was
> relaxed and could handle the pups safely.
> Hence it's possible to work with all types of dogs without vision.
> Perhaps others on the list can share their alternative techniques used when
> managing dogs and other animals to give Valerie the information she needs to
> encourage these organizations to allow her to prove herself.
>
> Peter Donahue who will soon be writing to you from the Acacia.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
> Peter:
>
> Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog
> is giving a whale eye. There are some dogs who do not make a sound before
> making an agressive move. There are a series of visual indicators before a
> dog begins barking and/or growling.
>
> I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs. I live with a fear
> agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure
> there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had
> been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.
>
> The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far
> from rubbish. Dogs are very visual animals. There are so many nuances of
> their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a
> well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up
> on.
>
> This is actually something I too would love to do for a living. I was going
> to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the
> restrictions. Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.
>
> Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are
> seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to
> finding within the NFB.
>
> Take care,
> Meghan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>>
>> If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
>> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
>> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
>> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors
>> can
>> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
>> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors.
>> People
>> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
>> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>>
>> I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
>> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
>> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers
>> before
>> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
>> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
>> helps.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
>> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and
>> i
>> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to
>> look
>> for in agressive dogs. Because dogs are visual in agressive situations,
>> for
>> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing
>> when
>> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
>> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
>> dog is doing.
>>
>> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
>> dealing with agrssive dogs, then take a dog training certification test,
>> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
>> working with the schedule would make learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>>
>> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>>
>> 1. fight to get into the school, which could set me up with a job apon
>> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40
>> to
>> 60 weeks. It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
>> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits
>> of
>> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and
>> 300
>> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
>> shelters.
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2. Read every book i can on dog training to teach myself, go to as many
>> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
>> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer
>> at
>> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
>> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was
>> talking
>> about.
>>
>> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>>
>> Val
>>
>> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>> Valerie,
>>>
>>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school. It
>>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>>> to
>>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you
>>> needed
>>> a
>>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>>> all
>>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job. I know
>>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material. With
>>> something
>>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>>> assistance.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>
>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>>> alter the program i would think. It would be no diferent than
>>> having a reader read tests.
>>>
>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>>> the situation.
>>>
>>> Am i wrong here? What do you guys think?
>>>
>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>>
>>> Val
>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>>> revoluationized the
>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>>
>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>> headquarters,
>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie Brown for the problem.
>>> I gave him a
>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>>
>>>>>> Now, he asks to see the email that the president and i
>>> shared. Going
>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he "can
>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>>> the fall of
>>>>>> 2011. Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>>> think, he will
>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>>
>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>>> fundalmental training
>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>>> program for you.
>>>>
>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Val!
>>>>
>>>>>>> Great attitude to have! Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>>> test that will
>>>>>>>> qualify me as a professional dog trainer. After that, I
>>> do plan on
>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>>> training school, the
>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>> dog. Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>>> to happen since
>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>>> national headquarters. I will keep you all posted.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this. Right
>>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>>> guys posted. Who knows, there may be someone who's
>>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>>> blind people,
>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>> services, but
>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>>> that people
>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>>> school expect
>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>>> where their dog
>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude. I'm not going to make
>>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>>> school and
>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>>> shelters. So what
>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you. This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>> themselves. It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>>> go. A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions. On the
>>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police. I
>>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>>> muttering. On the third
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court. My point
>>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation. I do not
>>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>> applicants. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
>>> isloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
>>> sident%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%4
>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblin
>>> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
>>> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mewhalen%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
More information about the NABS-L
mailing list