[nabs-l] need help

[Marc Workman]

Joe said,
The quality of a school's accessibility is so contingent on the 
administration currently present at a school that it is like using an orange 
traffic cone as a landmark to find your way to a building's front door.  It
may not be there tomorrow.

Marc says,
I'm not sure that a school's accessibility is really as fleeting as you 
suggest, but even if it is as fleeting as, for example, the sorts of clubs, 
campus security, student exchange programs, and so on that a university has, 
all things that can change over time, I don't think there is anything wrong 
with considering these factors when making a decision about which university 
to attend.

Joe said,
if you want to go straight up blind versus sighted, then, yes, I think we'd 
all agree that blind people
need to be that much more prepared than their sighted peers to excel in 
school or any other aspect of life for that matter.

Marc says,
I do agree with this, but where we may disagree is that I see this as a 
problem that needs to be fixed, and you seem to think that this is just an 
inevitable fact of life that every blind person needs to accept.

Joe said,
Your argument about higher education as a right would hold more weight if 
blind people were denied access to education.  No one is being denied access 
to the university, and the same challenges blind students face in the
classroom are the same challenges they are going to face in the workplace.

Marc says,
I think you are working with a somewhat narrow view of access.  Consider 
civil rights: it is not granting access to the bus if black people are 
forced to sit in the back.  I think it is analagous to claim that access to 
a university requires more than simply admitting disabled students.  If a 
university were built without including women's washrooms, not that 
ridiculous considering that women were not permitted to attend in the past, 
it would not be genuine access simply to admit women to the university 
without also offering them access to the washrooms.  In other words, I think 
that true access includes all aspects of the university.  I admit this is an 
ideal and not easily achieved, but it is something we should always be 
working towards.

Joe said,
Or, are you suggesting that all persons with a college degree have a right 
to a job after graduating?  There are plenty of blind people who invest in 
college who still do not have a job, just as is true of sighted graduates.

Marc says,
If sighted people had the right to a job after graduating, then blind people 
should as well, but, as you point out, sighted people do not enjoy this 
right, so neither should blind people.

Joe said,
And, I do not think people in power intentionally designed the college 
experience to shaft people with disabilities.

Marc says,
I choose my words carefully, Joe.  I never said that it was intentional, nor 
did I say that it was aimed at shafting anyone.  I think it would be naive 
to think that those in power do not consider their own needs and interests 
when designing institutions like universities.  It is less of an intention 
than a natural inclination.  And it is not so much that disabled people are 
targeted as that disabled people are never considered in the first place.

You're absolutely right that if you have to experience challenges in 
university that force you to acquire skills which are useful in the job 
market, then you will be better off for having gone through the experiences. 
The logic of this argument is problematic, though, because it's equally true 
that, if we do intentionally make things harder for people, resulting in 
those people acquiring useful skills, then making things harder for those 
people is a good thing.  Why ever bother trying to improve access, since 
lesser access is almost certainly going to result in improved skills.

I'm away from home right now and shouldn't be spending so much time on this, 
so I unfortunately have to drop this argument for now, but I'm sure there 
will be reason to come back to it in future.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help


> Jewel,
>
> I think you took a better, broader approach to the question.  I wondered 
> if
> structural accessibility should be covered, and I guess my position is a
> little mixed.  On the one hand, if an institution is receiving federal
> funds, it ought to make these physical accommodations happen for the 
> people
> who need them.  I do not like that people in wheelchairs need to sometimes
> cruise around the block to get into the same entrance.  On the other hand, 
> I
> wonder if excessive accommodations are limiting a person's capacity to 
> deal
> with the rest of the world where people are not so considerate.  Yes, 
> public
> places are generally expected to have Braille signs, wheelchair ramps, and
> wider bathroom stalls, but is it cost efficient to create accessible 
> bubbles
> on college campuses, or would it be preferable to advocate for a 
> universally
> accessible design all around.  I would personally be in favor of the 
> latter
> so that physical university accessibility is more than just feel-good
> projects that make the administration feel as though they are making 
> people
> with disabilities feel welcomed.  Structural accommodations are a tough 
> one
> for me, and I will admit to sitting on the fence about it.
>
> I'm afraid I disagree with the blindness later in life argument.  A lot of
> things can happen to people later in life.  This does not necessarily 
> change
> people's mentality, and since we already see the varying degrees of
> disability services on campuses, I think we can agree that we will never 
> be
> able to create the perfect disability office that ideally fits everyone's
> needs since disabilities dramatically range from the most obvious to the
> most subtle.  I believe universities are places where people go to fulfill
> the specific task of obtaining higher education, not the place where 
> people
> receive higher education and training simultaneously.  Job interviews are
> pretty grim equalizers after college, and as much as I believe in equal
> rights, I think employers have a right to select the most qualified
> candidates based on what they can provide now, not what they could
> potentially provide later.
>
> Marc,
>
> Selecting disability-friendly universities is not the same as selecting
> cities, transportation, and housing.  While the location of a school 
> should
> certainly play into a person's choice, using the accessibility quality of 
> a
> campus is like a business student choosing to attend Texas A&M because the
> people are super nice.  Would this same person turn down the University of
> Texas even though the people are not as nice but it has a stronger 
> business
> school?  The quality of a school's accessibility is so contingent on the
> administration currently present at a school that it is like using an 
> orange
> traffic cone as a landmark to find your way to a building's front door. 
> It
> may not be there tomorrow.
>
> Yes, actually if sighted students can't exhibit these listed
> responsibilities, they too should reevaluate college.  Contrary to popular
> myth, college is not for everyone, and there are enough successful people
> without college that no one should feel as if they have to attend a
> university to make something of themselves, but, if you want to go 
> straight
> up blind versus sighted, then, yes, I think we'd all agree that blind 
> people
> need to be that much more prepared than their sighted peers to excel in
> school or any other aspect of life for that matter.  A school that 
> provides
> great accessibility may only be running the risk of providing that 
> person's
> training with a false sense of confidence.
>
> Your argument about higher education as a right would hold more weight if
> blind people were denied access to education.  No one is being denied 
> access
> to the university, and the same challenges blind students face in the
> classroom are the same challenges they are going to face in the workplace.
> Or, are you suggesting that all persons with a college degree have a right
> to a job after graduating?  There are plenty of blind people who invest in
> college who still do not have a job, just as is true of sighted graduates.
>
> I do not agree that the answer is an accessible job market.  To me, the
> answer is a better K-12 education system.  Yes, I acknowledge all the 
> people
> who come by a disability later in life should have proper recourse, but I
> think that responsibility falls on the shoulders of consumer groups like 
> the
> NFB to continue advocating for accessible technology, better 
> rehabilitation
> training standards, better Braille literacy rates, etc. for the community 
> as
> a whole.
>
> And, I do not think people in power intentionally designed the college
> experience to shaft people with disabilities.  The NFB president made it
> through one of the country's leading law schools with far less
> accommodations than we enjoy today.  Are you going to tell me our 
> generation
> is somehow less capable of accomplishing the same feat with far more
> technological advances?
>
> Anmol,
>
> Give me an example of a student who has not received some type of 
> equipment
> assistance from their state agency.  If they exist, NABS needs to
> short-lists these states and ramrod them into compliance.  Even in cases
> where students attend private institutions receive some measure of
> assistance to purchase adaptive products.
>
> I see what you mean about experienced disability offices who can properly
> teach faculty what people with disabilities need, but then, isn't this 
> part
> of our overarching problem?  People pretending to know what we need?  No 
> one
> will be able to better convey to faculty what I need better than myself.
>
> To all,
>
> I realize I may be coming off as the NABS Grinch on this subject.  I just
> don't want people to be lulled into collapsing a really good disability
> service college experience with the rest of reality.  If you're currently
> stuck at a school where the only disability service is a one-man show 
> where
> the man in question is never around, please bombard this list with
> questions.  We need to hear from you, and if we can hook you up with a 
> good
> member in your area to spend time showing you the ropes, then I guess 
> that's
> what needs to happen.  The point is, college is the beginning of the rest 
> of
> your life.  It may be tough as hell, but there is always a way to help you
> get through it.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
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