[nabs-l] Airlines and Federation History

Anmol Bhatia anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 24 13:52:58 UTC 2010


I completely agree with what Mika and Briley have said.
I
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Wed, 6/23/10, Mika Pyyhkala <pyyhkala at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Mika Pyyhkala <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Airlines and Federation History
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 10:47 AM
> (story below of being asked to leave
> a plane due to a safety breifing issue)
> 
> I don't think the blind should be categorically denied
> access to the
> exit rows, and I agree with Steve Jacobson's
> comments.  It would be
> interesting to talk with Steve about his experiences in the
> 80's and
> 90's.
> 
> The airline and exit row issue was one of the main things
> that got me
> interested in the NFB.
> 
> There is another less known about rule that was adopted by
> the FAA
> initially at the same time that the initial ACAA Part 382
> regulations
> were adopted by DOT.  This little known about rule
> concerns certain
> requirements that could imply that a blind person must
> receive an
> individual safety briefing, on top of the general safety
> briefing that
> is issued to all passengers.
> 
> We in the federation object to any sort of requirement that
> the blind
> be subjected to some sort of additional compulsory safety
> briefing on
> the basis of blindness.  If a blind person believes
> some kind of extra
> breifing would be helpful to them, they can request
> it.  However, the
> blind should not be required to receive an extra briefing
> soley based
> on blindness.
> 
> Imagine if you will, if a blind person flew 3 times per
> week.  Believe
> it or not, there are people that fly 3 times per
> week.  If you look at
> this safety briefing notion, imagine then that in theory
> the blind
> person that flys three times per week would have to receive
> some kind
> of "extra" "special" briefing that nobody else is required
> to receive.
>  In fact,  the blind person that flys three times per
> week most likely
> knows the particulars of the aircraft more than 95% of
> travelers.  It
> is completely arbitrary and capricious to require blind
> people to
> receive these special briefings soley based on ones
> blindness.
> 
> This discussion is also not just an academic one, or one
> just about
> theories and philosophy, or some kind of table top
> exercise.
> 
> I fly on average about 2 to 4 times a month. 
> Fortunately, usually,
> there is not a major issue with the safety briefings.
> 
> However, I took a flight on Monday June 21st where
> initially
> immediately when I boarded, the flight attendant indicated
> that I
> would have to receive a special briefing.  Where as
> with other
> passengers, the flight attendants greeted them as they
> boarded, I was
> initially "greeted," with the noted statement.
> 
> I told the flight attendant repeatedly that I did not want
> or need a
> "special briefing," and he kept insisting that his manual
> said that he
> was required by the FAA to provide such a breifing.
> 
> I asked for a CRO, Complaint Resolution Official, and then
> at least 1
> agent and 2 supervisors became involved.
> 
> The agents and supervisors told the flight attendant that I
> was a
> frequent flyer, and didn't needd a "special breifing."
> 
> Then one of the agents said that they would volunteer to
> fly on the
> flight with me if this would make the flight attendant feel
> more
> comfortable.  I told them that while this may have
> been well intended,
> that it was not a good or solid solution to the
> problem.  I told them
> I still wanted to speak to a CRO myself.
> 
> Now mind you all this was going on in the middle of a
> moderately full
> flight, and again, at this point I was in my seat.
> 
> Then a CRO came to my seat, and said that I was to take my
> things and
> come with her off the plane, and that they were going to
> rebook me on
> another flight.  I asked her if they were going to
> compensate me, and
> she said absolutely they would compensate me.  She did
> actually do
> this in pretty much as quiet and as discretely a way as she
> could
> have.
> 
> I don't know exactly what they would have done if I were to
> have told
> them I was not going to get off the plane.  However,
> several of our
> brothers and sisters in the NFB do have stories of telling
> "them" that
> they would not get off the plane.
> 
> I chose to get off the plane because the flight attendant
> made me feel
> uncomfortable and unwelcome, because I was confident these
> gate agents
> were in fact going to do whatever they could do to help me,
> and
> because in some wayys I did not want to find out what would
> happen if
> I told them I would not get off.  But in other ways, I
> was curious
> about it.
> 
> You have to remember also that, the way these FAA and DOT
> regulations
> are written, because NFB did not get what we wanted, there
> may be
> something the airline and flight attendant could use to try
> to say
> that we qre required to receive the special briefing. 
> I am
> researching the particulars of the applicable regulations.
> 
> Once we got off the plane, I told the gate agents I wanted
> them to
> rebook me on another airline to a city closer to where I
> was going,
> and they obliged without any objections or fuss or
> trouble.
> 
> Also for my compensation they issued a roundtrip flight
> voucher which
> is this carriers usual compensation for a denied boarding
> situation.
> Again they issued the compensation without any fuss or
> difficulty.
> 
> The next day, on my return flight, I ran in to the
> supervisor who had
> asked me to leave the plane.  She said that they were
> going to have a
> conference call with the station managers, the flight
> attendants duty
> manager, and others and that likely "some action will be
> taken against
> the flight attendant."
> 
> The CRO supervisor had the wherewithall to say that while
> the "manual"
> might say that you always brief a blind passenger
> separately, that no
> manual can account for every individual situation.
> 
> In conclusion it also really occurs to me that most blind
> people need
> to learn more about the nuts and bolts of how airlines
> work, how to
> deal with CRO's, etc.  The stories I hear are just
> crazy, eg, blind
> people saying they were required to use a wheelchair or
> other odd
> things.
> 
> If you  learn how the airlines work, learn how to work
> with your CRO,
> if they get to know you at the airport, you really often
> can have a
> good experience.
> 
> Working with a CRO, as I described it in an email yesterday
> to my
> sister, is sort of a dance of carrots and sticks and give
> and take.
> 
> In general, the law does not require the airline or the CRO
> to make
> your travel more comfortable, pleasant or for them to
> compensate you
> or really work with you.  The regulations have a lot
> of requirements,
> but a lot of them are administrative.  And if any
> dollars are to be
> paid out, its usually fines a carrier would pay to the
> government.
> That said, if the CRO wants to help you, they really can do
> a lot for
> you, but again typically they aren't required too.  If
> they wanted to
> make your life miserable, they could do that too...this
> would be
> especially rellevant if you are a very frequent flyer.
> 
> There is also nothing to say you as the passenger have to
> make life
> easy for the airline.  Your free to file a DOT
> complaint whenever they
> screw up.  Almost always if a situation escallates to
> the point of
> needing a CRO, they will screw up on some technicality of
> the
> regulation and usually more than one.  When you file a
> compalint with
> DOT it gets tagged against the carrier, and DOT completes
> an
> investigation similar to that of when a member of congress
> makes an
> inquiry to the agency.  Its a lot of paperwork for the
> airline and for
> DOT, and there are very specific ways they have to handle
> the
> complaint.  That said, if your satisfied that the CRO
> resolved an
> issue for you, you don't have to file a DOT complaint.
> 
> Hopefully this gives people a few things to think
> about.  And we
> really should do a seminar on how to deal with the airlines
> on a
> really practical in the field sense and not just in
> theory.  We should
> have some very frequent flyers and maybe a real CRO put the
> seminar
> on.
> 
> Best,
> Mika
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/27/10, Briley Pollard <brileyp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > It is also important to note that everyone else who
> sits in those seats is
> > only instructed to give it up if they "feel they are
> not willing or able to
> > complete these tasks." Why should we not be permitted
> to use our own
> > judgment on this matter? We should have to prove it to
> someone else? I
> > should think not.
> >
> > Briley
> > On May 27, 2010, at 4:58 AM, Jedi wrote:
> >
> >> Antonio,
> >>
> >> It's kind of ridiculous that I should have to
> prove my capacity to open
> >> the door to anyone much less you when sighted
> people don't have to. That's
> >> the issue, isn't it? As you have already stated,
> there's no guarantee that
> >> all sighted people are truly capable of opening
> the door, but it's enough
> >> to know that they believe they can by virtue of
> the intelligence to figure
> >> it out. Lest anyone think that a sighted person
> would be able to figure
> >> out how to open the door by means of reading
> visual instructions, I should
> >> point out that not all sighted people can
> understand diagrams of that sort
> >> much less utilize them. Just a thought. If the
> cabin is dark or smoky,
> >> visual instructions won't help anyone.
> >>
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jedi
> >>
> >> Original message:
> >>> Hi,
> >>
> >>> Jedi, I wonder how you find yourself more
> capable to open the door, and
> >>> the
> >>> slide ramp better than many people you know if
> you haven't actually had
> >>> the
> >>> experience of, thus the ability to learn to
> deal with the equipment
> >>> before.
> >>
> >>> Just as there are capable, and not so capable
> sighted people, many of
> >>> whom
> >>> can not open the door and the slide, there are
> many blind people who are
> >>> not
> >>> capable of performing the duties.
> >>
> >>> I for one don't mind, and don't care to sit in
> exit sitting, as long as I
> >>> can sit in a place more or less determined by
> me. That would mean I would
> >>> not choose to sit in a bulk head seat.
> >>
> >>> If the airline can pre-screen for likely
> liabilities, IE. blind passenger
> >>> who can't see the handle for the ramp, they
> will. And if I can be seated
> >>> in
> >>> a reasonable fashion, and get to my
> destination without snag, I am fine,
> >>> and
> >>> feel treated fairly for the services the
> airline offers.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
> >>
> >>> Student, Western Governors University
> >>> (617) 744-9716
> >>> Eastern time zone
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"
> >>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:18 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Airlines and Federation
> History
> >>
> >>
> >>>> You make some very good points here. 
> I don't think that some are
> >>>> realizing how little is really expected of
> most people who choose to sit
> >>>> in an exit row.  One thing I
> >>>> forgot to mention when I was writing about
> why we were as upset as we
> >>>> were
> >>>> about exit rows in the 80's is that there
> was a policy considered that
> >>>> would have not
> >>>> only prohibited us from sitting in exit
> rows, we would also have been
> >>>> prohibited from the row in front of or
> behind an exit row.  That would
> >>>> have excluded us from
> >>>> quite a number of seats on some planes.
> >>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>
> >>>> Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 May 2010 01:24:46 -0400, Jedi
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read Walking
> Alone and Marching Together! Peter
> >>>>> can't have given a better suggestion!
> >>
> >>>>> Unfortunately folks, this is exactly
> the press that makes airlines
> >>>>> think we can't do for ourselves thus
> asking us not to sit in emergency
> >>>>> exits, asking us to preboard, asking
> us to deplane after everyone else,
> >>>>> and altogether treating us as though
> we can't handle ourselves. For
> >>>>> those who think the emergency exit row
> thing is not such a big deal and
> >>>>> worth fighting over, let me remind you
> that a person as young as
> >>>>> fifteen can sit there, a person served
> alcohol (either before boarding
> >>>>> or on the plane) can sit there, and
> anyone who judges themselves (with
> >>>>> the exceptions of the deaf, the blind,
> the non-English speaking, and
> >>>>> the otherwise visibly disabled) can
> sit there. So basically, we're less
> >>>>> competent, in the opinion of FFA, than
> a fifteen-year-old or a drunk.
> >>>>> Others are allowed to judge their
> fitness for sitting there, but we
> >>>>> cannot. Is that worth fighting about?
> Absolutely! Unfortunately, how
> >>>>> society thinks of us in this context
> is very indicative of how society
> >>>>> thinks of us in others. This might
> sound harsh, but it's unfortunately
> >>>>> quite true. The bottom line here is
> that blind people are treated
> >>>>> arbitrarily based on someone else's
> opinion of what we can do versus
> >>>>> our own. Arbitrary treatment of this
> kind is not limited to disability
> >>>>> in our past, but has also been used to
> separate People of Color from
> >>>>> White folks back in the day and even
> now to an often invisible extent.
> >>>>> That's why Federationists fought.
> Unfortunately, we did lose that
> >>>>> battle, but that doesn't mean that we
> won't reserect it someday. I hope
> >>>>> we do as I consider myself more
> capable of opening that exit than many
> >>>>> sighted persons I know.
> >>
> >>>>> Respectfully,
> >>>>> Jedi
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Original message:
> >>>>>> Hello Peter,
> >>
> >>>>>> I must say that NFB's issues with
> the airlines are an excellent
> >>>>>> example
> >>>>>> of the need to pick battles one
> can actually win.
> >>
> >>>>>> It is my thought that the fight
> over the exit row was ridiculous.
> >>
> >>>>>> There's only one case where it
> might be a legitimate issue. That would
> >>>>>> be if it resulted in a blind
> person actually being denied the trip.
> >>
> >>>>>> If the blind person can be
> reseated or a sighted one is voluntarily
> >>>>>> bumped in order to secure the
> blind person's equal rights in the case
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> a packed flight, then the matter
> is resolved IMHO.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>> On 5/16/2010 11:50 AM, Peter
> Donahue wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hello Briley and everyone,
> >>
> >>>>>>>     If
> people would take the time to read Walking Alone and
> Marching
> >>>>>>> Together they would learn of
> the federation's long struggle to secure
> >>>>>>> equal
> >>>>>>> access for the blind in air
> travel. It is a history filled with the
> >>>>>>> kind of
> >>>>>>> publicity and dribble that can
> result from incidents like this one,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> much
> >>>>>>> much more. Blind people had
> their canes taken away from them by
> >>>>>>> airline
> >>>>>>> personnel, were told they
> couldn't sit in seat rows other than the
> >>>>>>> bulkhead
> >>>>>>> if they used a guide dog, were
> told they needed to preboard and
> >>>>>>> post-board,
> >>>>>>> the list goes on. Read past
> issues of The Braille Monitor from the
> >>>>>>> late
> >>>>>>> 1980s and the early 1990s to
> get an idea of the kind of
> >>>>>>> discrimination
> >>>>>>> heaped on blind air passengers
> and why today we must still be on our
> >>>>>>> guard
> >>>>>>> when stories of this kind hit
> the media. Blind people were arrested
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> physically removed from planes
> and went to jail for doing nothing
> >>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>> demanding to be treated like
> other passengers.
> >>
> >>>>>>>     We
> successfully closed down a US Airways ticket counter for
> >>>>>>> several
> >>>>>>> hours due to their demanding a
> blind person move from an emergency
> >>>>>>> exit
> >>>>>>> row;
> >>>>>>> a seat he was assigned in the
> first place. The NFB held several
> >>>>>>> protest
> >>>>>>> against the FAA and the DOT
> due to their unwillingness to take a hand
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> remedying the discriminatory
> treatment we experienced at the hands of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> airlines and still do. I know
> because I took part in several of these
> >>>>>>> activities.
> >>>>>>> Other types of air passengers
> now experience similar treatment. Large
> >>>>>>> passengers are an example. The
> NFB can teach the flying public a
> >>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>> two about fighting the
> horrible treatment now experienced all too
> >>>>>>> often.
> >>>>>>> They just need to learn to
> stop, as Dr. Maurer put it in 1986,
> >>>>>>> "Sitting
> >>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>> and shutting up!"We as
> federationists need to remember these
> >>>>>>> struggles
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> not take the freedom of travel
> we now have for granted. These
> >>>>>>> nabsters
> >>>>>>> aren't just squealing over
> nothing but are remembering our past and
> >>>>>>> upholding our legacy of
> collective action by reacting the way they
> >>>>>>> are.
> >>>>>>> All
> >>>>>>> the best.
> >>
> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Briley Pollard"<brileyp at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> To: "National Association of
> Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010
> 9:39 AM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd:
> [Members] Airline apologizes for
> >>>>>>> forgetting
> >>>>>>> blindteen
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>> Valory,
> >>
> >>>>>>> Again, the reason this is
> upsetting is A, this girl, (from the way it
> >>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>> portrayed), isn't comfortable
> enough with herself to stand up for her
> >>>>>>> rights, and B, (the biggest
> issue), how we're portrayed in the media.
> >>>>>>> What
> >>>>>>> is said about one of us is
> perceived to be a definition of all of us.
> >>>>>>> Media
> >>>>>>> coverage of us is so often
> negative and condescending, and yes, it
> >>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>> upset me, and yes it does push
> me to speak up about how this is not
> >>>>>>> acceptable.
> >>
> >>>>>>> Briley
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>> On May 15, 2010, at 10:15 PM,
> Valerie Gibson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>> I agree.  Seems to
> quick to point out someone else's fault and
> >>>>>>>> become
> >>>>>>>> indignant for all over one
> person's actions.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> There's just not enough
> imformation in the article to make such
> >>>>>>>> judgement
> >>>>>>>> calls.  We can only
> say what we would do in that situation, and
> >>>>>>>> while
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> don't know this girl's
> background or mental capabilities it seems
> >>>>>>>> unfair
> >>>>>>>> to point fingers.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> Perhaps she did not know
> that there are organisations like the NFB
> >>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>> could help her. Perhaps
> she has been told all of her life that she
> >>>>>>>> needs
> >>>>>>>> sighted help in
> everything.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> We've all been in a
> position where we did not know how to do things,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> judging that you have
> found this mailing list, you've found the NFB
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>> well as a sense of
> endependance.   Not everyone has done so.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> Does it look bad for the
> blind community? Yes.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> But how's this for a
> solution: try and find this girl and tell her
> >>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> there are places where she
> can learn a bit of independance.
> >>
> >>>>>>>> On May 15, 2010, at 8:33
> PM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> Hello Sarah and all,
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> I think we may want to
> exercise care before judging this situation
> >>>>>>>>> too
> >>>>>>>>> quickly.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> Many times while
> traveling by air, flight attendants have asked
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> wait until the plane
> has emptied before leaving. Sometimes I do
> >>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> sometimes I don't.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> If Jessica were asked
> to wait, then she were forgotten, then she
> >>>>>>>>> certainly does have a
> very legitimate complaint here.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> We also need to keep
> in mind that members of the blind community
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> wide ranging
> capabilities and other disabilities with which they
> >>>>>>>>> must
> >>>>>>>>> cope.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> As always, this just
> comes down to the fact we all must exercise
> >>>>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>>>> due
> >>>>>>>>> diligence while
> performing our jobs to avoid problems of this sort.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2010 4:19 PM,
> Sarah Alawami wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think she should
> have gotten off the plain by her self. How hard
> >>>>>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>>>>> that be?
> just  get off and turn right and go up the ramp thing
> and
> >>>>>>>>>> turn
> >>>>>>>>>> left and get out
> and then wait for your escort. but here's the
> >>>>>>>>>> story.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> Airline apologizes
> for forgetting blind teen
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> Edmonton Journal ,
> May 15, 2010
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> United Airlines
> has apologized to a blind woman from Vancouver
> >>>>>>>>>> Island
> >>>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>>> was abandoned on
> an empty plane in Chicago.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> Jessica Cabot of
> Courtenay, B.C., made headlines this week after
> >>>>>>>>>> she
> >>>>>>>>>> went
> >>>>>>>>>> public about being
> forgotten in an empty United Airlines plane on
> >>>>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>>> April 7
> >>>>>>>>>> stopover in
> Chicago.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> The 18-year-old
> was waiting for flight attendants to escort her to
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> connecting flight
> to Florida when she heard the plane door seal
> >>>>>>>>>> shut.
> >>>>>>>>>> Ten
> >>>>>>>>>> minutes later two
> maintenance staff happened to find her on an
> >>>>>>>>>> unscheduled
> >>>>>>>>>> check of the
> plane.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> She panicked in
> the plane, calling for help.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> After a series of
> complaints, Cabot received a $250 airline
> >>>>>>>>>> voucher
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> promise of an
> apology. Five weeks after her flight and a series of
> >>>>>>>>>> news
> >>>>>>>>>> stories later, she
> finally got one.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>> "They just
> called," said Cabot, on the phone from Jacksonville,
> >>>>>>>>>> Fla.,
> >>>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>>> she is visiting
> her fiance. "I can't even count how many times
> >>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> said
> >>>>>>>>>> sorry."
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing
> list
> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>>>>>>
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> >>
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