[nabs-l] Airlines and Federation History
Ignasi Cambra
ignasicambra at gmail.com
Thu Jun 24 13:32:27 UTC 2010
In my experience, flight attendants always ask the blind person if he/she flies frequently. I always say yes, and never get any special safety briefings. I must say, though, that sighted people get a visual representation (either live or just on a screen) of safety procedures. The only way for us to get that exact information is to have someone show it to us personally. I do fly several times a week, and don't need it. But for someone who doesn't fly, it really might be necessary.
On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
> (story below of being asked to leave a plane due to a safety breifing issue)
>
> I don't think the blind should be categorically denied access to the
> exit rows, and I agree with Steve Jacobson's comments. It would be
> interesting to talk with Steve about his experiences in the 80's and
> 90's.
>
> The airline and exit row issue was one of the main things that got me
> interested in the NFB.
>
> There is another less known about rule that was adopted by the FAA
> initially at the same time that the initial ACAA Part 382 regulations
> were adopted by DOT. This little known about rule concerns certain
> requirements that could imply that a blind person must receive an
> individual safety briefing, on top of the general safety briefing that
> is issued to all passengers.
>
> We in the federation object to any sort of requirement that the blind
> be subjected to some sort of additional compulsory safety briefing on
> the basis of blindness. If a blind person believes some kind of extra
> breifing would be helpful to them, they can request it. However, the
> blind should not be required to receive an extra briefing soley based
> on blindness.
>
> Imagine if you will, if a blind person flew 3 times per week. Believe
> it or not, there are people that fly 3 times per week. If you look at
> this safety briefing notion, imagine then that in theory the blind
> person that flys three times per week would have to receive some kind
> of "extra" "special" briefing that nobody else is required to receive.
> In fact, the blind person that flys three times per week most likely
> knows the particulars of the aircraft more than 95% of travelers. It
> is completely arbitrary and capricious to require blind people to
> receive these special briefings soley based on ones blindness.
>
> This discussion is also not just an academic one, or one just about
> theories and philosophy, or some kind of table top exercise.
>
> I fly on average about 2 to 4 times a month. Fortunately, usually,
> there is not a major issue with the safety briefings.
>
> However, I took a flight on Monday June 21st where initially
> immediately when I boarded, the flight attendant indicated that I
> would have to receive a special briefing. Where as with other
> passengers, the flight attendants greeted them as they boarded, I was
> initially "greeted," with the noted statement.
>
> I told the flight attendant repeatedly that I did not want or need a
> "special briefing," and he kept insisting that his manual said that he
> was required by the FAA to provide such a breifing.
>
> I asked for a CRO, Complaint Resolution Official, and then at least 1
> agent and 2 supervisors became involved.
>
> The agents and supervisors told the flight attendant that I was a
> frequent flyer, and didn't needd a "special breifing."
>
> Then one of the agents said that they would volunteer to fly on the
> flight with me if this would make the flight attendant feel more
> comfortable. I told them that while this may have been well intended,
> that it was not a good or solid solution to the problem. I told them
> I still wanted to speak to a CRO myself.
>
> Now mind you all this was going on in the middle of a moderately full
> flight, and again, at this point I was in my seat.
>
> Then a CRO came to my seat, and said that I was to take my things and
> come with her off the plane, and that they were going to rebook me on
> another flight. I asked her if they were going to compensate me, and
> she said absolutely they would compensate me. She did actually do
> this in pretty much as quiet and as discretely a way as she could
> have.
>
> I don't know exactly what they would have done if I were to have told
> them I was not going to get off the plane. However, several of our
> brothers and sisters in the NFB do have stories of telling "them" that
> they would not get off the plane.
>
> I chose to get off the plane because the flight attendant made me feel
> uncomfortable and unwelcome, because I was confident these gate agents
> were in fact going to do whatever they could do to help me, and
> because in some wayys I did not want to find out what would happen if
> I told them I would not get off. But in other ways, I was curious
> about it.
>
> You have to remember also that, the way these FAA and DOT regulations
> are written, because NFB did not get what we wanted, there may be
> something the airline and flight attendant could use to try to say
> that we qre required to receive the special briefing. I am
> researching the particulars of the applicable regulations.
>
> Once we got off the plane, I told the gate agents I wanted them to
> rebook me on another airline to a city closer to where I was going,
> and they obliged without any objections or fuss or trouble.
>
> Also for my compensation they issued a roundtrip flight voucher which
> is this carriers usual compensation for a denied boarding situation.
> Again they issued the compensation without any fuss or difficulty.
>
> The next day, on my return flight, I ran in to the supervisor who had
> asked me to leave the plane. She said that they were going to have a
> conference call with the station managers, the flight attendants duty
> manager, and others and that likely "some action will be taken against
> the flight attendant."
>
> The CRO supervisor had the wherewithall to say that while the "manual"
> might say that you always brief a blind passenger separately, that no
> manual can account for every individual situation.
>
> In conclusion it also really occurs to me that most blind people need
> to learn more about the nuts and bolts of how airlines work, how to
> deal with CRO's, etc. The stories I hear are just crazy, eg, blind
> people saying they were required to use a wheelchair or other odd
> things.
>
> If you learn how the airlines work, learn how to work with your CRO,
> if they get to know you at the airport, you really often can have a
> good experience.
>
> Working with a CRO, as I described it in an email yesterday to my
> sister, is sort of a dance of carrots and sticks and give and take.
>
> In general, the law does not require the airline or the CRO to make
> your travel more comfortable, pleasant or for them to compensate you
> or really work with you. The regulations have a lot of requirements,
> but a lot of them are administrative. And if any dollars are to be
> paid out, its usually fines a carrier would pay to the government.
> That said, if the CRO wants to help you, they really can do a lot for
> you, but again typically they aren't required too. If they wanted to
> make your life miserable, they could do that too...this would be
> especially rellevant if you are a very frequent flyer.
>
> There is also nothing to say you as the passenger have to make life
> easy for the airline. Your free to file a DOT complaint whenever they
> screw up. Almost always if a situation escallates to the point of
> needing a CRO, they will screw up on some technicality of the
> regulation and usually more than one. When you file a compalint with
> DOT it gets tagged against the carrier, and DOT completes an
> investigation similar to that of when a member of congress makes an
> inquiry to the agency. Its a lot of paperwork for the airline and for
> DOT, and there are very specific ways they have to handle the
> complaint. That said, if your satisfied that the CRO resolved an
> issue for you, you don't have to file a DOT complaint.
>
> Hopefully this gives people a few things to think about. And we
> really should do a seminar on how to deal with the airlines on a
> really practical in the field sense and not just in theory. We should
> have some very frequent flyers and maybe a real CRO put the seminar
> on.
>
> Best,
> Mika
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/27/10, Briley Pollard <brileyp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It is also important to note that everyone else who sits in those seats is
>> only instructed to give it up if they "feel they are not willing or able to
>> complete these tasks." Why should we not be permitted to use our own
>> judgment on this matter? We should have to prove it to someone else? I
>> should think not.
>>
>> Briley
>> On May 27, 2010, at 4:58 AM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Antonio,
>>>
>>> It's kind of ridiculous that I should have to prove my capacity to open
>>> the door to anyone much less you when sighted people don't have to. That's
>>> the issue, isn't it? As you have already stated, there's no guarantee that
>>> all sighted people are truly capable of opening the door, but it's enough
>>> to know that they believe they can by virtue of the intelligence to figure
>>> it out. Lest anyone think that a sighted person would be able to figure
>>> out how to open the door by means of reading visual instructions, I should
>>> point out that not all sighted people can understand diagrams of that sort
>>> much less utilize them. Just a thought. If the cabin is dark or smoky,
>>> visual instructions won't help anyone.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>> Jedi, I wonder how you find yourself more capable to open the door, and
>>>> the
>>>> slide ramp better than many people you know if you haven't actually had
>>>> the
>>>> experience of, thus the ability to learn to deal with the equipment
>>>> before.
>>>
>>>> Just as there are capable, and not so capable sighted people, many of
>>>> whom
>>>> can not open the door and the slide, there are many blind people who are
>>>> not
>>>> capable of performing the duties.
>>>
>>>> I for one don't mind, and don't care to sit in exit sitting, as long as I
>>>> can sit in a place more or less determined by me. That would mean I would
>>>> not choose to sit in a bulk head seat.
>>>
>>>> If the airline can pre-screen for likely liabilities, IE. blind passenger
>>>> who can't see the handle for the ramp, they will. And if I can be seated
>>>> in
>>>> a reasonable fashion, and get to my destination without snag, I am fine,
>>>> and
>>>> feel treated fairly for the services the airline offers.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>>
>>>> Student, Western Governors University
>>>> (617) 744-9716
>>>> Eastern time zone
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:18 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Airlines and Federation History
>>>
>>>
>>>>> You make some very good points here. I don't think that some are
>>>>> realizing how little is really expected of most people who choose to sit
>>>>> in an exit row. One thing I
>>>>> forgot to mention when I was writing about why we were as upset as we
>>>>> were
>>>>> about exit rows in the 80's is that there was a policy considered that
>>>>> would have not
>>>>> only prohibited us from sitting in exit rows, we would also have been
>>>>> prohibited from the row in front of or behind an exit row. That would
>>>>> have excluded us from
>>>>> quite a number of seats on some planes.
>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 May 2010 01:24:46 -0400, Jedi wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read Walking Alone and Marching Together! Peter
>>>>>> can't have given a better suggestion!
>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately folks, this is exactly the press that makes airlines
>>>>>> think we can't do for ourselves thus asking us not to sit in emergency
>>>>>> exits, asking us to preboard, asking us to deplane after everyone else,
>>>>>> and altogether treating us as though we can't handle ourselves. For
>>>>>> those who think the emergency exit row thing is not such a big deal and
>>>>>> worth fighting over, let me remind you that a person as young as
>>>>>> fifteen can sit there, a person served alcohol (either before boarding
>>>>>> or on the plane) can sit there, and anyone who judges themselves (with
>>>>>> the exceptions of the deaf, the blind, the non-English speaking, and
>>>>>> the otherwise visibly disabled) can sit there. So basically, we're less
>>>>>> competent, in the opinion of FFA, than a fifteen-year-old or a drunk.
>>>>>> Others are allowed to judge their fitness for sitting there, but we
>>>>>> cannot. Is that worth fighting about? Absolutely! Unfortunately, how
>>>>>> society thinks of us in this context is very indicative of how society
>>>>>> thinks of us in others. This might sound harsh, but it's unfortunately
>>>>>> quite true. The bottom line here is that blind people are treated
>>>>>> arbitrarily based on someone else's opinion of what we can do versus
>>>>>> our own. Arbitrary treatment of this kind is not limited to disability
>>>>>> in our past, but has also been used to separate People of Color from
>>>>>> White folks back in the day and even now to an often invisible extent.
>>>>>> That's why Federationists fought. Unfortunately, we did lose that
>>>>>> battle, but that doesn't mean that we won't reserect it someday. I hope
>>>>>> we do as I consider myself more capable of opening that exit than many
>>>>>> sighted persons I know.
>>>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Hello Peter,
>>>
>>>>>>> I must say that NFB's issues with the airlines are an excellent
>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>> of the need to pick battles one can actually win.
>>>
>>>>>>> It is my thought that the fight over the exit row was ridiculous.
>>>
>>>>>>> There's only one case where it might be a legitimate issue. That would
>>>>>>> be if it resulted in a blind person actually being denied the trip.
>>>
>>>>>>> If the blind person can be reseated or a sighted one is voluntarily
>>>>>>> bumped in order to secure the blind person's equal rights in the case
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> a packed flight, then the matter is resolved IMHO.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2010 11:50 AM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Briley and everyone,
>>>
>>>>>>>> If people would take the time to read Walking Alone and Marching
>>>>>>>> Together they would learn of the federation's long struggle to secure
>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>> access for the blind in air travel. It is a history filled with the
>>>>>>>> kind of
>>>>>>>> publicity and dribble that can result from incidents like this one,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> much more. Blind people had their canes taken away from them by
>>>>>>>> airline
>>>>>>>> personnel, were told they couldn't sit in seat rows other than the
>>>>>>>> bulkhead
>>>>>>>> if they used a guide dog, were told they needed to preboard and
>>>>>>>> post-board,
>>>>>>>> the list goes on. Read past issues of The Braille Monitor from the
>>>>>>>> late
>>>>>>>> 1980s and the early 1990s to get an idea of the kind of
>>>>>>>> discrimination
>>>>>>>> heaped on blind air passengers and why today we must still be on our
>>>>>>>> guard
>>>>>>>> when stories of this kind hit the media. Blind people were arrested
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> physically removed from planes and went to jail for doing nothing
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> demanding to be treated like other passengers.
>>>
>>>>>>>> We successfully closed down a US Airways ticket counter for
>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>> hours due to their demanding a blind person move from an emergency
>>>>>>>> exit
>>>>>>>> row;
>>>>>>>> a seat he was assigned in the first place. The NFB held several
>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>> against the FAA and the DOT due to their unwillingness to take a hand
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> remedying the discriminatory treatment we experienced at the hands of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> airlines and still do. I know because I took part in several of these
>>>>>>>> activities.
>>>>>>>> Other types of air passengers now experience similar treatment. Large
>>>>>>>> passengers are an example. The NFB can teach the flying public a
>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> two about fighting the horrible treatment now experienced all too
>>>>>>>> often.
>>>>>>>> They just need to learn to stop, as Dr. Maurer put it in 1986,
>>>>>>>> "Sitting
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> and shutting up!"We as federationists need to remember these
>>>>>>>> struggles
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> not take the freedom of travel we now have for granted. These
>>>>>>>> nabsters
>>>>>>>> aren't just squealing over nothing but are remembering our past and
>>>>>>>> upholding our legacy of collective action by reacting the way they
>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>> All
>>>>>>>> the best.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Briley Pollard"<brileyp at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:39 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Members] Airline apologizes for
>>>>>>>> forgetting
>>>>>>>> blindteen
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> Valory,
>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, the reason this is upsetting is A, this girl, (from the way it
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> portrayed), isn't comfortable enough with herself to stand up for her
>>>>>>>> rights, and B, (the biggest issue), how we're portrayed in the media.
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>> is said about one of us is perceived to be a definition of all of us.
>>>>>>>> Media
>>>>>>>> coverage of us is so often negative and condescending, and yes, it
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> upset me, and yes it does push me to speak up about how this is not
>>>>>>>> acceptable.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Briley
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree. Seems to quick to point out someone else's fault and
>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>> indignant for all over one person's actions.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's just not enough imformation in the article to make such
>>>>>>>>> judgement
>>>>>>>>> calls. We can only say what we would do in that situation, and
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> don't know this girl's background or mental capabilities it seems
>>>>>>>>> unfair
>>>>>>>>> to point fingers.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps she did not know that there are organisations like the NFB
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> could help her. Perhaps she has been told all of her life that she
>>>>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>>>> sighted help in everything.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> We've all been in a position where we did not know how to do things,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> judging that you have found this mailing list, you've found the NFB
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> well as a sense of endependance. Not everyone has done so.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does it look bad for the blind community? Yes.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> But how's this for a solution: try and find this girl and tell her
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> there are places where she can learn a bit of independance.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Sarah and all,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think we may want to exercise care before judging this situation
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> quickly.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Many times while traveling by air, flight attendants have asked
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> wait until the plane has emptied before leaving. Sometimes I do
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes I don't.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Jessica were asked to wait, then she were forgotten, then she
>>>>>>>>>> certainly does have a very legitimate complaint here.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We also need to keep in mind that members of the blind community
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> wide ranging capabilities and other disabilities with which they
>>>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>>>> cope.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As always, this just comes down to the fact we all must exercise
>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>> due
>>>>>>>>>> diligence while performing our jobs to avoid problems of this sort.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2010 4:19 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think she should have gotten off the plain by her self. How hard
>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>> that be? just get off and turn right and go up the ramp thing and
>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>> left and get out and then wait for your escort. but here's the
>>>>>>>>>>> story.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Airline apologizes for forgetting blind teen
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Edmonton Journal , May 15, 2010
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> United Airlines has apologized to a blind woman from Vancouver
>>>>>>>>>>> Island
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> was abandoned on an empty plane in Chicago.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jessica Cabot of Courtenay, B.C., made headlines this week after
>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>> public about being forgotten in an empty United Airlines plane on
>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> April 7
>>>>>>>>>>> stopover in Chicago.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The 18-year-old was waiting for flight attendants to escort her to
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> connecting flight to Florida when she heard the plane door seal
>>>>>>>>>>> shut.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ten
>>>>>>>>>>> minutes later two maintenance staff happened to find her on an
>>>>>>>>>>> unscheduled
>>>>>>>>>>> check of the plane.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She panicked in the plane, calling for help.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> After a series of complaints, Cabot received a $250 airline
>>>>>>>>>>> voucher
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> promise of an apology. Five weeks after her flight and a series of
>>>>>>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>>>>> stories later, she finally got one.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "They just called," said Cabot, on the phone from Jacksonville,
>>>>>>>>>>> Fla.,
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>> she is visiting her fiance. "I can't even count how many times
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>>> sorry."
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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