[nabs-l] Blindness and Identity
Briley Pollard
brileyp at gmail.com
Sat Mar 27 03:04:21 UTC 2010
Jedi,
I was simply adding to the convo. I agreed with how you identified identity, and your comments about blindness as an aspect of identity. What I was mainly responding too was the comment someone made about blind people sometimes isolating or dealing with only other blind people in social situations because they are uncomfortable in a sighted world. In that sense, I was just saying that sometimes blind people overidentify with their blindness. How we see ourselves and how others see us are different sides of the same coin I suppose.
On Mar 26, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Jedi wrote:
> Briley and all:
>
> It may be useful to define identity in this context. When I talk about identity, I don't mean that blindness does or should become the major influence in one's life. Instead, I mean to speak of identity in the same context of other social justice movements and communication situations where identity is a key player in a given context. How much one identifieis with the blindness community is going to depend heavily on a lot of things including what other identities a person has such as being a woman, a person of color, gay, disabled in some other way, Christian, the list goes on. A lot will also depend on life experiences because some of those identities are highlighted for each of us specifically in different ways. Does that make sense?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> You present some interesting and valid points, Antonio. I've always been troubled by the fact that some blind people seem to grab onto that, and hold it as the most important aspect of their identity. Blindness is a part of who I am, and it is important, this I will never deny. I am also a woman, a sister, a musician, a daughter, etc. I am not ashamed of my blindness, but I live in a sighted world, and by cutting myself off from that, I would not only be doing myself a disservice, but the sighted world. Do I have blind friends? Of course I do. Do we share common frustrations due to our common trait? Yes. But I also have sighted friends, and I don't feel any less kinship with them because they can see and I can't.
>
>> I am saddened by the fact that I have heard many of my blind peers say that they only have blind friends, and they wouldn't know how to go about starting relationships with sighted people. This would be like me as a Christian exclusively associating with only Christians. Is it nice to have friends who share my beliefs? Of course. But it is important to have people in my life with a different perspective.
>
>> Is it sometimes difficult to integrate ourselves into a world where people may be uncomfortable with us? Yes. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying.
>
>> Briley
>
>> On Mar 26, 2010, at 8:40 AM, Antonio M. Guimaraes wrote:
>
>>> Interesting points, Mark.
>
>>> Some times the blind community identifies so much with being blind to the point of doing most things and conducting much of their interactions with other blind people. Some have mentioned during the scholastic socialization discussion that their time is taken up mostly with NFB business, and not much else.
>
>>> While this is important work, the NFB and other blind people exist in a bigger world context, and to exclude ourselves, our activities, and our work from the world is to make blindness more than it needs to be.
>
>>> That said, I am blind, and identify myself as such. Not doing so would consist in denial. My blindness presents challenges, maybe yours doesn't, and I am fighting almost daily to improve my access and participation in the world I want to be a part of.
>
>>> People notice my green eyes every day, but that characteristic does not present challenges. I need to read some of the NFB philosophy articles again to speak with more authority on them, but we some times take these writings as dogma, and take them out of context. I don't think Jernigan was diminishing the meaning of how hard it is to be blind at times. He was some times imagining a perfect world where every blind person has training and opportunity. And therein lies the precondition to normal life as a blind person: training and opportunity. I haven't much where cooking skills are concerned, but I don't have to go back to an NFB-run center to get good training in that regard. In some regards, some training centers are a drama magnet for the residents.
>
>>> As long as I get the training somewhere, and have the opportunity, then I will live that area of life more confidently as a blind person.
>
>>> One can not get all the training necessary for life in a 6 month period, so we keep getting trained in life, and opening the doors for ourselves.
>
>>> Antonio Guimaraes
>
>>> If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille.
>
>>> Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you.
>>> http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169
>>> Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:29 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Identity
>
>
>>>> I think the issue of blindness constituting identity is definitely very
>>>> interesting, and I've been thinking about it a bit recently.
>
>>>> I believe that blindness does shape our sense of who we are, and this is
>>>> largely socially influenced, but it's also deeper than that. It's almost
>>>> certainly true that the challenges, discrimination, exclusion, etc that
>>>> blind people routinely experience influence our identity. However, and this
>>>> is where I part somewhat with so called NFB philosophy, I'm not sure that,
>>>> in the absence of these factors, blindness would be reduced to a mere
>>>> characteristic, if mere characteristic is supposed to mean something rather
>>>> trivial and unimportant like hair and eye colour. I definitely think that,
>>>> in the absence of social and environmental barriers, blind people would be
>>>> able to flourish as well as anyone else; I don't question that claim, but I
>>>> think perceiving the world in a unique way, in the way blind people do with
>>>> little or no sight, is a significant factor in how a person's identity is
>>>> constituted.
>
>>>> Arielle called sex a mere characteristic. As with blindness, if calling it
>>>> a mere characteristic is supposed to mean that it is as trivial as being 5
>>>> foot 6 instead of 5 foot 5, then I don't think it is a mere characteristic.
>>>> I don't have evidence of this, but I think I would feel differently about my
>>>> body if I had the ability to grow a human being inside of it. My hunch is
>>>> that the ability, or lack of ability, to give birth probably affects how one
>>>> views one's body and thus one's sense of self in a non-trivial way.
>>>> Similarly, relying heavily on auditory input, developing better memories,
>>>> perceiving the world with little to no reliance on sight, I think these all
>>>> affect a person's sense of identity in non-trivial ways, and they don't
>>>> depend on social factors.
>
>>>> Clarification, I'm not trying to suggest that women are defined by their
>>>> ability to give birth. I'm only saying that to possess that ability might
>>>> shape how you think about yourself in a way that is more significant than
>>>> whether you have short or long hair.
>
>>>> Best,
>
>>>> Marc
>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of Arielle Silverman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:08 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] being scholastically social?
>
>
>>>> Hi again,
>
>>>> Re-reading the posts thus far, I will add that I agree with Jedi.
>>>> Blindness itself doesn't constitute the social identity. The identity
>>>> comes from the social reaction we experience as a result of blindness,
>>>> and the ways we've developed to respond to that social reaction. I
>>>> would venture to guess that this is similar to the effects of skin
>>>> color or biological sex on the development of racial and gender
>>>> identities. Race and sex are mere characteristics to the extent that
>>>> they by themselves don't influence how people function, just as
>>>> blindness by itself doesn't significantly alter or take away from how
>>>> we function. It's the social expectations associated with race, sex,
>>>> and disability that shape how those identities form and how they
>>>> influence people's sense of self.
>
>>>> Arielle
>
>
>>>> On 3/25/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>> A few comments from an amateur social psychologist:
>
>>>>> There is research showing that members of minority groups (i.e. ethnic
>>>>> minorities) sometimes experience the same kinds of awkward
>>>>> interactions with majority group members that we have discussed as
>>>>> happening to blind people. Specifically, majority group members (i.e.
>>>>> white Americans) sometimes feel awkward when interacting with minority
>>>>> members, especially out of concern that they might accidentally come
>>>>> across as being prejudiced or racist. The result is that the
>>>>> interaction tends to be strained and there is more tension than there
>>>>> should be, and minority group members can get left out as a result of
>>>>> the awkwardness. Of course this doesn't happen to all minority members
>>>>> and certainly many majority members have no problem interacting across
>>>>> race or ethnicity lines, just as plenty of sighted people have no
>>>>> problem befriending, working with or dating blind people. But it is a
>>>>> general tendency.
>
>>>>> I think the question of whether blindness is an identity or a
>>>>> situation/characteristic is interesting. My hunch is that it depends
>>>>> on who you ask; in other words, blind people can range from being
>>>>> completely disidentified (and often not voluntarily associating with
>>>>> other blind people) to completely identified and highly affiliated (to
>>>>> the point of having no close sighted friends). For low-identifiers,
>>>>> blindness probably feels more like a single characteristic; for high
>>>>> identifiers, blindness may feel like a trait coupled with a social
>>>>> group label. In the NFB, when we talk about "the blind" or "the
>>>>> nation's blind", we are implicitly acknowledging that the blind have a
>>>>> common identity, even if we don't all believe that this common
>>>>> identity or fate is rooted in culture.
>
>>>>> As part of my Ph.D. training I do intend to do some research
>>>>> investigating whether blindness is a coherent identity and, if it is,
>>>>> whether it has similar effects on people's self-concept and behavior
>>>>> as other identities (i.e. ethnic, religious, etc.) For example, I
>>>>> suspect that the constant messages we get from the public about our
>>>>> inferiority and the devastation of blindness pose unique psychological
>>>>> issues that we contend with, and that it can be difficult to see
>>>>> ourselves as whole, capable beings when our identities as blind people
>>>>> are construed in the public eye as compromised or broken.
>
>>>>> One final thought: I've found it interesting that many sighted people
>>>>> seem to think of blindness as a condition or trait but don't think of
>>>>> "the blind" as a coherent group with the same rights as racial,
>>>>> ethnic, and other cultural groups. This was apparent in the debate
>>>>> over the movie Blindness. I heard several people (some sighted, some
>>>>> blind) argue that the movie was OK because the people portrayed in it
>>>>> weren't "real blind people"; rather, they were sighted people who went
>>>>> blind as part of the plot. Of course, any of us who were sighted at
>>>>> one time know that people who go blind are still blind people;
>>>>> nevertheless, there appeared to be that distinction in some people's
>>>>> minds. I think this is also why it's hard for us to make civil rights
>>>>> arguments against blatant injustices (i.e. "Treating blacks with this
>>>>> kind of discrimination is unacceptable, and so treating us this way is
>>>>> also unacceptable"). A lot of people just don't get it, or think that
>>>>> treating blind people differently is OK because stereotypes about
>>>>> blindness are somehow more valid than stereotypes about other minority
>>>>> groups. I'm not sure how to bridge that thought gap or how to
>>>>> demonstrate the existence of the common blind identity in situations
>>>>> where we are all affected by the same discriminations or denials of
>>>>> rights.
>
>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>> On 3/25/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> True. Maybe the reason I'm anti social is I have no social skills to
>>>>>> begin
>>>>>> it I wirhwe talk to much or don't' talk at all and sometimes I come
>>>>>> across
>>>>>> as rude but I'm so used to beeing int he teaching invironment that I
>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> for me get out of it. I'm not making much sense as I am starting to get a
>>>>>> bit hungry.. Hehaha. I do know this much I have a harder time socialising
>>>>>> with the sighree then with the bind. theer is so much that can be
>>>>>> comunicated in silence. so much we can't see.
>
>>>>>> I really enjoy reading these discussions and view points as it makes me
>>>>>> think about what I need to work on or not bather working on.
>
>>>>>> Take care all.
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Interesting. If we're talking straight up blindness, I think we've all
>>>>>>> experienced a moment or two of feeling out of place in light of the
>>>>>>> dominant
>>>>>>> sighted crowd. I certainly experience with each meeting I attend until
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> shake off the feeling and plunge forward. If we're talking ethnic
>>>>>>> minority,
>>>>>>> I can't say I've experienced that before, but I don't know if it's
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> the feeling is overshadowed by the blindness factor or because I've
>>>>>>> genuinely never witnessed this behavior.
>
>>>>>>> Regardless, what I find interesting about this discussion is that it
>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>> blindness an identity factor. I think the original post asked how we as
>>>>>>> blind individuals handled campus involvement, when our philosophy claims
>>>>>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. I know this
>>>>>>> position
>>>>>>> does not claim blindness can be eliminated, but it would appear to
>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>> blindness is irrelevant to one's sense of self. So, rather than ask,
>>>>>>> "how
>>>>>>> do you, as a blind person, handle X, Y and Z," shouldn't we be asking
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> handle the task in general?
>
>>>>>>> Interesting discussion.
>
>>>>>>> Joe Orozco
>
>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:51 PM
>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] being scholastically social?
>
>>>>>>> Joe,
>
>>>>>>> The issue of inaccessibility to informal networks is actually becoming
>>>>>>> a key issue for those who study organizational communication and
>>>>>>> diversity. Basically, inaccessibility to informal networks is a fancy
>>>>>>> way of saying that one is left out or somehow treated differently based
>>>>>>> on their minority group status. Either as a blind person or a member of
>>>>>>> a minority group, have you ever had that gut feeling that you just
>>>>>>> didn't belong or that your social interactions were influenced by your
>>>>>>> minority status? Perhaps you were the only member of a minority or one
>>>>>>> of few? Maybe it wasn't something that anyone said directly, or maybe
>>>>>>> it was. But either way, that gut feeling was still there.
>>>>>>> Organizational scholars would say that this kind of thing is controlled
>>>>>>> by context for sure. If your workplace and general environment are
>>>>>>> rather diverse and handle diversity well, you're probably less likely
>>>>>>> to have this experience. If not, than you probably will at some point
>>>>>>> and to some degree or other. But basically, the bottom line is that for
>>>>>>> people who experience this problem, they tend to be the only one or one
>>>>>>> of few representing their minority in an organization that hasn't yet
>>>>>>> become aware of its assumptions and ideologies favoring the dominant
>>>>>>> population. If you ask me, blindness will definitely cause one to
>>>>>>> experience this interesting problem at some point.
>
>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi
>
>
>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Jedi,
>
>>>>>>>> I'm part of a minority group and have never experienced or
>>>>>>> witnessed this
>>>>>>>> behavior. What are you basing these conclusions on? Or,
>>>>>>> could you give
>>>>>>>> examples? If blind people are going to use this as a justification to
>>>>>>>> explain their social isolation, I'd like the comparison to be
>>>>>>> accurate.
>
>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco
>
>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>> their sleeves,
>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:59 AM
>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] being scholastically social?
>
>>>>>>>> It's not just a blindness thing precisely. It's not uncommon for
>>>>>>>> minority groups to have difficulty making friends on the job or in
>>>>>>>> school: things are cordial at work, but there's often lack of
>>>>>>> access to
>>>>>>>> informal social networks which can, in some cases, become a real
>>>>>>>> obstacle even during work hours. Causes might include anything from
>>>>>>>> just not knowing what to say to a minority group member to feeling a
>>>>>>>> large gap between minorities and their non-minority
>>>>>>> counterparts. There
>>>>>>>> really is no right way to handle this problem because it
>>>>>>> affects us all
>>>>>>>> so differently. If it concerns you that you're feeling left
>>>>>>> out, it may
>>>>>>>> be worth addressing to someone who you feel will most likely hear you.
>
>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>> Jedi
>
>
>>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>>> I am currently in high school. I don't do much in terms of
>>>>>>>> clubs or other
>>>>>>>>> school activities in school. I briefly joined the stage crew
>>>>>>>> for a play, but
>>>>>>>>> I was kind of in the way. No one talked to me, about anything
>>>>>>>> other than
>>>>>>>>> professional questions about things of a technical nature. I
>>>>>>>> did my job
>>>>>>>>> well, but I clearly did not fit in. people were afraid that
>>>>>>>> if they talked
>>>>>>>>> to me they would offend me or something like that.
>
>>>>>>>>> Because I don't do many activities in school, I am involved
>>>>>>> in the boy
>>>>>>>>> scouts, life teen, and the NFB. Even at places such as boy
>>>>>>>> scouts and life
>>>>>>>>> teen, most of the conversations I have are professional or
>>>>>>>> technical in
>>>>>>>>> nature. I really don't have many sighted friends. I don't
>>>>>>>> know if this is
>>>>>>>>> blindness related, or what.
>
>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:11 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] being scholastically social?
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> In middle school, I would jump at the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>> involved in as
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> as my parents would allow. I did Student Government, Jazz
>>>>>>> Band, and a
>>>>>>>>>> Youth
>>>>>>>>>> Leadership organization that focused on competitive debate
>>>>>>> and public
>>>>>>>>>> speaking (think like a junior Toastmasters International). I
>>>>>>>> couldn't wait
>>>>>>>>>> for high school when I'd have even more interesting groups
>>>>>>>> and activities
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> choose from.
>
>>>>>>>>>> When I got to high school, I encountered a lot
>>>>>>>> of...problems...with the
>>>>>>>>>> school's Vision department (which is sad since I only went
>>>>>>>> to this high
>>>>>>>>>> school because we were told it offered the most for
>>>>>>> visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>> students). I could go on all day with the details here, but
>>>>>>>> I'll spare you
>>>>>>>>>> that. One of these issues was the fact that blind students
>>>>>>>> at this school
>>>>>>>>>> tended to be very...disconnected from the rest of the student body,
>>>>>>>>>> avoiding
>>>>>>>>>> activities and student events. I learned shortly after
>>>>>>>> joining Model UN
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> Psychology Club, attending the first Freshman dance, and
>>>>>>>> planning to go to
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> pep rally that the Vision department wasn't happy with the
>>>>>>>> fact t I joined
>>>>>>>>>> and attended these clubs without telling them first, and
>>>>>>>> that if I was
>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>> to keep attending, they'd need my mother to write up a
>>>>>>>> permission note (no
>>>>>>>>>> other student needed to do this) and they would have to first find a
>>>>>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>>>>>> to stay late in the day and basically babysit me while I
>>>>>>> attend these
>>>>>>>>>> activities. Oh, and I wasn't allowed to go to that pep rally
>>>>>>>> unless I sat
>>>>>>>>>> with my TVI and the other teachers, not in the Freshman
>>>>>>>> stands with my
>>>>>>>>>> class. My mother and I told them that all of this was
>>>>>>>> unnecessary, and we
>>>>>>>>>> complained to the principal, but between this and a number of other
>>>>>>>>>> issues,
>>>>>>>>>> we just ended up taking matters into our own hands.
>
>>>>>>>>>> We registered as a home schooling family, and joined a home
>>>>>>>> school support
>>>>>>>>>> group with about 70 or so other families in the county. I
>>>>>>>> took advantage
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> my new freedom and got involved in a ton of extracurricular
>>>>>>>> activities in
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> community, even sports (something that never would have
>>>>>>> flown at that
>>>>>>>>>> school). Now that I'm in college, I try to get involved on
>>>>>>>> campus and in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> city when ever I can. I joined the university's fencing
>>>>>>>> club, a volunteer
>>>>>>>>>> organization, and I'm currently applying to Psi Chi. I also
>>>>>>>> try to get the
>>>>>>>>>> most out of campus cultural events like plays or concerts,
>>>>>>>> and make use of
>>>>>>>>>> campus facilities like the gym. THe only issue I've been
>>>>>>>> having is that
>>>>>>>>>> transportation in my city. The only bus that comes near by
>>>>>>>> house recently
>>>>>>>>>> changed its schedule and now stops running early in the
>>>>>>>> evening. The only
>>>>>>>>>> way to really go out in the evening for any sort of event or
>>>>>>>> get home from
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> club meeting is to take a cab or ride with a friend, but you
>>>>>>>> need to get
>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>> a bit first to make those sighted friends. I find that if
>>>>>>>> money is tight
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> month, it's pretty unlikely that I'll be doing much outside
>>>>>>>> of attending
>>>>>>>>>> class, including attending free activities or events. I
>>>>>>>> guess that's just
>>>>>>>>>> one price of living off campus though.
>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Darian Smith
>>>>>>>> <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi list,
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm curious to here what people's thoughts are about becoming
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in clubs and campus activities in school (high school or
>>>>>>>>>>> college). do you jump at the oppertunity to meet new
>>>>>>> people? do you
>>>>>>>>>>> feel nervous about it. have you met some of your best friends at a
>>>>>>>>>>> ralley, social club, campus society? how did your self-
>>>>>>>> identity as
>>>>>>>>>>> a blind person factor into your interactions with people? how did
>>>>>>>>>>> people interact with you?
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Darian
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>>>>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind has launched a
>>>>>>>> nationwide teacher
>>>>>>>>>>> recruitment campaign to help attract energetic and passionate
>>>>>>>>>>> individuals into the field of blindness education, and we need your
>>>>>>>>>>> help! To Get Involved go to:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.TeachBlindStudents.org
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>>>>>>>> dfly%40gmail.com
>
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>
>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>
>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
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