[nabs-l] Blindness and Identity

[Jedi]

Corbb,

Sorry, but I think I miswrote. The social skills thing I was referring 
to is an attitude I've observed in some professionals working with 
blind people. I've observed some of them acting like having two blind 
people (or several) hanging together can be a bad thing because we're 
supposedly socially deficient by nature of blindness and that hanging 
with sighted persons is much healthier to improve social skills. I was 
wondering if this attitude corelates to Arielle's experiences. Sorry 
about that.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> I really hope there's a better term than "mixed" for a blind-sighted
> relationship, but at this hour I can't come up with one and will use
> it for the purposes of brevity!

> I used to think that I couldn't see myself marrying another blind
> person. I used to think about all the practical implications: well
> what if I want to travel in a remote place for a vacation, and the
> only way to get around is via car? Or how will I raise kids if I can't
> watch them in order to give them independence? And the list goes on.
> That's all in past tense for a reason.

> Thanks to what all of you in the NFB have taught me over the last many
> years, I now see blindness or vision as a non-issue for relationships.
> There are far more important characteristics to think about. On the
> parenting issue, Melissa & Mark Riccobono's teleconference clarified
> many issues for me and erased many of the misconceptions I held about
> my own abilities. I've also seen lots of blind-blind relationships
> (and marriages!) and how effective they can be...just as effective as
> sighted-sighted or "mixed" relationships...and that's changed my
> opinion.

> So, Jedi, I believe that a predisposition by a blind person to think
> that he/she wants to marry a sighted person can be a misconception
> about the abilities of the blind. I don't think it has anything to do
> with social skills -- for me, it was about the practical implications
> of living in a sighted world as a blind person.

> -Corbb


> On Mar 27, 2010, at 9:08 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Arielle,

> Any guesses as to why there seems to be an attitutde that mixed
> relationships are better than all blind relationships? I was wondering
> if it has to do with this idea that since the blind inherently have
> lesser social skills, then it would not be a good idea for a blind
> person to mingle with other blind people if they wanted to learn
> better social skills. I agree that that's not true at all, but I was
> just wondering if this couldn't be one explanation for the attitude
> you describe.

> Respectfully,
> Jedi


> Original message:
>> Hi all,

>> With all due respect to the discussions thus far regarding the
>> components of identity and culture, I'd like to steer the conversation
>> a little closer to what we originally started with when we were
>> talking about belonging, or lack thereof, in the sighted world,
>> joining student clubs, etc. I am curious--Is there such a thing as
>> "over-identifying" with blindness or spending too much time with blind
>> people? Does spending time with blind people necessarily take away
>> from how much time and energy you can put into relationships with the
>> sighted? Or, is it possible to simultaneously feel a strong connection
>> with other blind people and still engage in productive connections
>> with sighted people at work, and have healthy social connections with
>> sighted people as well?

>> I tend to take the latter view, and am a little saddened when people
>> make comments to the effect that we should spend less time with other
>> blind people in order to achieve our goal of integration, as if the
>> two objectives are mutually exclusive. Sometimes I think people (blind
>> and sighted alike) have the implicit assumption that relationships
>> with sighted people are somehow superior to relationships we have with
>> the blind, and that it's to our advantage to, for example, avoid
>> spending all our time at NFB meetings, or try not to work in the
>> blindness field on principle, or to only date sighted people. Of
>> course, people differ in the extremity of these views. But I do think
>> it's entirely possible and healthy to juggle a strong "blind identity"
>> with the other identities and connections we have in the world,
>> without taking away from either one.

>> I'm interested to hear your views about this, but I'd like to close
>> with a concrete example. When I was in high school and college, most
>> of my close friends were blind. I often felt, as many of you have
>> described, that I could only sustain casual relationships with sighted
>> people, but that I could only feel the deep, reciprocal connections I
>> had with other blind people. When I started graduate school, after
>> receiving blindness training at LCB and being a member and leader in
>> NABS for five years, I finally began to perceive that my fellow
>> students, who were all sighted, didn't care much about my blindness
>> and were for the most part able to treat me like anyone else. I have
>> been dating a sighted guy for the past year, which is something I
>> never thought would happen, and with him I feel the same kind of
>> reciprocal intimacy that I thought I could only have with other blind
>> people. My point in disclosing all that is that I honestly don't think
>> I would have reached this level of confidence and belonging in my
>> sighted community if I hadn't had the strong, affirming relationships
>> that I had for so many years with my blind friends. Around other blind
>> people I felt normal and capable, and was able to become a
>> reciprocating partner and a leader. I had to be able to do those
>> things and practice them over time before I could go into the
>> uncertainty of a new sighted community with the right social skills
>> and confidence to integrate and build new connections, including
>> finding my boyfriend. It's just something to think about.

>> Arielle

>> On 3/27/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This will be the fourth time that I've clarified what I said, but
>>> what I
>>> said keeps getting distorted, so I'll try one more time.

>>> Jedi said,
>>> two men would insist that I perceive myself differently because I
>>> can give
>>> birth.

>>> I've read every message on this subject, and I didn't read one man,
>>> let
>>> alone two, say anything like that.

>>> How on earth could anyone know how you perceive yourself? I
>>> certainly don't,
>>> and I have never said that I did.  For the record, I have no idea
>>> how Jedi
>>> perceives herself.  I only know that she says that she doesn't give
>>> much
>>> thought to her ability to give birth, and I don't question that at
>>> all.  But
>>> that is just not the issue that is being discussed.  How you perceive
>>> yourself has nothing to do with this.  Identity is much more than
>>> just how
>>> you perceive yourself.  Your ability to perceive, how you perceive,
>>> what you
>>> perceive, these are all already influenced by your identity.  So
>>> whether or
>>> not you think about a particular feature of yourself does not alone
>>> determine whether it is or is not a part of your identity.

>>> I truly regret bringing up the ability to give birth.  There is way
>>> too much
>>> bagage that comes with a discussion of that topic, and I clearly
>>> offended
>>> some people, which I had no intention of doing.  The fact that I'm
>>> a man
>>> makes my bringing it up all the more problematic for some.  I tried
>>> to
>>> choose my words carefully, including the clarification that I was
>>> in no way
>>> suggesting that women are defined by this ability, but even this
>>> wasn't
>>> enough to avoid the bagage, which is fine, I get that.  It was a bad
>>> example, but the disappointing thing is that so much energy has
>>> been focused
>>> on this one example that it has over-shadowed what could have been
>>> a deeper
>>> discussion of blindness and identity.  That is unfortunate and
>>> makes me
>>> really wish I had never mentioned it.

>>> No hard feelings I hope.

>>> Marc



>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:46 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and Identity


>>> Briley,

>>> I'm glad you said something because it took me a while to understand
>>> why I replied so snarkily last time. I realized that I felt incensed
>>> that two men would insist that I perceive myself differently
>>> because I
>>> can give birth. To me, it was as bad as if some sighted person got on
>>> list and told us all that our lack of eyesight shapes how we see
>>> ourselves. Some would say yes, and others would say no. For those who
>>> would say no, I think we'd feel pretty frustrated because it would be
>>> almost like that sighted person was telling us that because they
>>> saw us
>>> differently because we're blind, so should we regardless if we do or
>>> not. What frustrated me most is that I twice said that, in my
>>> experience of not being a mother, I didn't think much about my
>>> ability
>>> to have children and yet I felt argued with as though someone who saw
>>> themselves as having more authority on the topic, a man, had the
>>> final
>>> authority on how I felt about myself as a woman. It was so
>>> frustrating.
>>> And you're quite right that men probably don't think about their
>>> ability to be part of the procreation process any more or less than
>>> we
>>> do. Same goes for sighted people. I've heard sighted people say that
>>> they don't realize how much they take for granted, and that's quite
>>> true. They mean to say that they feel sorry for us, but the fact is
>>> that they really have no idea how much privilege they have in society
>>> just as many in a given "superior" (in quotes) class don't. Thanks
>>> again for your comments.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi


>>> Original message:
>>>> Jedi,

>>>> I thought you handled the issue of giving birth quite capably. I
>>>> am not
>>>> a mother yet, so no, I don't think about my ability to pop out
>>>> kids as
>>>> a big part of who I am... or really ponder it as a part of
>>>> identity at
>>>> all. Do you men see your ability to participate in making children
>>>> as a
>>>> part of your identity? Probably not. So, it is semi chauvinist of
>>>> you
>>>> to assume we are attached to our uterus as a part of us that gives
>>>> us
>>>> self worth.

>>>> Briley



>>>> On Mar 27, 2010, at 3:55 AM, Jedi wrote:

>>>>> Well, if we want to get down to brass tacks, we can all say that we
>>>>> will never know just how our being is affects our perceptions,
>>>>> but the
>>>>> bottom line still lies at the fact that our perception of our
>>>>> beingness
>>>>> is largely determine by what our culture teaches us about it, and
>>>>> identity is the presentation of how we respond to those teachings
>>>>> in
>>>>> our interactions with ourselves and others.

>>>>> I think it's interesting that two men have been interested in
>>>>> whether
>>>>> or not I see myself differently because I can give birth yet no
>>>>> women
>>>>> have weighed in on the subject. I also think they're more
>>>>> interesting
>>>>> in my birthing abilities than I am. Well gentlemen, you're
>>>>> welcome to
>>>>> those abilities so long as you're willing to take the identity that
>>>>> comes with them. *tongue in cheek*

>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi



>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> The point is that without ever having had the experience of
>>>>>> being a man,
>>> you
>>>>>> cannot say for sure that your being a woman does or does not
>>>>>> have an
>>> impact
>>>>>> on how you see yourself or experience the world. I suspect it
>>>>>> does, but
>>>>>> without any basis for comparison, you can't say. Just as my
>>>>>> being blind
>>> from
>>>>>> birth prohibits me from determining whether or not or to what
>>>>>> degree my
>>>>>> blindness affects how I view myself and experience the world. My
>>>>>> gut
>>> feeling
>>>>>> is that my blindness has a fairly profound affect on at least a
>>> significant
>>>>>> subset of the things I experience and the way in which I
>>>>>> experience
>>> them.

>>>>>> Blindness is absolutely part of my identity, as is my height,
>>>>>> skin color
>>> and
>>>>>> love of the Chicago Cubs. Your identity is just an exhaustive
>>>>>> list of
>>> all of
>>>>>> the characteristics and attributes which make a particular
>>>>>> person the
>>>>>> particular person that they are.

>>>>>> To what degree I identify myself as blind or identify with the
>>>>>> greater
>>>>>> community of blind people is a completely separate question from
>>>>>> that of
>>>>>> whether or not blindness is part of my identity.

>>>>>> I don't think blindness, strictly defined, is a social
>>>>>> construct, while
>>> I
>>>>>> think the concept of disability is. I'm sure that to articulate my
>>> reasons
>>>>>> for feeling this way would require more time than I am willing
>>>>>> to put
>>> into
>>>>>> it now, but that is my gut feeling.

>>>>>> Thought I'd throw my two cents into this interesting discussion.

>>>>>> All the best,

>>>>>> Sean


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>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org

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