[nabs-l] Fwd: Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 191
Josh
jkenn337 at gmail.com
Fri May 28 14:22:23 UTC 2010
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 191
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:21:16 -0700
From: gamers-request at audyssey.org
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: a drastic change is needed for audio games.
(Christopher Bartlett)
2. Re: a drastic change is needed for audio games. (Lisa Hayes)
3. Re: a drastic change is needed for audio games. (Lisa Hayes)
4. Re: a drastic change is needed for audio games. (dark)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:00:53 -0700
From: "Christopher Bartlett"<themusicalbrewer at gmail.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
Message-ID:<000001cafe1a$5f083a60$1d18af20$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Lest all be doom and gloom, I'd like to point out two counterexamples, being
Entombed and Time of Conflict. Both David Greenwood and Jason Allen have
been supporting the heck out of their respective new titles. There was a
period for Entombed where we had six releases within 7 days to try and fix a
set of bugs introduced in a new feature. David is creating an on-line
component for ToC. Greenwood's games are of a complexity that dwarfs most
other offerings in the market, and Allen's reconception of the rogue-like
games is addictive and has lots of replay value.
Most important of all, both of these developers have created and nourished
vibrant communities around their games. Participants are encouraged to
submit ideas, bug reports and suggestions for the direction of the games in
question, and we see those suggestions being implemented. As an example, I
wrote a several-page initial review and wish list for ToC when I first got
it. The most recent revision incorporates some of the more important items
on my wish list and hints David has given lead me to suspect that more are
coming, as well as lots of cool stuff I never thought of.
I would hold these developers up as examples of what can be accomplished by
the canonical one-man shop. Crowd-sourcing creative development, at least
to the extent of welcoming and taking the best of user input solves one part
of the problem. Good and constant communications with the user base makes
users willing to be patient.
And lest those of us on the extreme fringe of complexity-seeking get too
complacent, remember that a lot of the sighted market is content with less
complex games too. My wife, who is sighted would far rather play Bejeweled,
or Peggle than any FPS (they make her sick) or complex combat sim. The
casual gaming market is every bit as important as the hard core market.
Does that mean devs may spend time on these games that they could be
spending on something more hard core? Of course. And rightly so from a
business perspective.
I get the sense that many devs create the games they have wanted to play,
rather than having a business plan that says, I'll corner this part of the
market with this title and go after the granny-gamers with this one and get
the hard-core teens with Blood and Iron XII. Let's be real, this isn't
something you do for a living, it's a labor of love.
Still, it's a business and needs to conducted as such by those who wish to
charge for their efforts. Then again, I haven't found a free game that has
held my interest for more than a few minutes, so I'll continue to
selectively buy what I like, and if the developer is willing to listen to my
thoughts, he or she will win my loyalty. I've bought everything GMA
produced except the VIP mud client, which I just wouldn't use. I will
continue this record as long as David keeps producing games.
Christopher Bartlett
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:14:53 +1000
From: "Lisa Hayes"<lhayes2 at internode.on.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
Message-ID:<0508AD866812417E9FBF480FDF88C3E7 at pc1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
And what sighted developer works eight to ten years on one game, that market
would fall apart if that were the case.
Lisa Hayes
www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Peterson"<bpeterson2000 at cableone.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
> That's exactly what I was getting at. I certainly wouldn't be willing to
> spend eight to ten years on one project, and to be quite frank I'm not
> necessarily enough of a team player to be willing to work with other
> people, not even people I knew well. That's an excellent way to
> potentially ruin friendships, particularly if you can't agree with your
> partner(s) on which way the game should go..
> We are the Knights who say...Ni!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Rivard"<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>
>
>> The one-man game developing company is not an excuse. It's a fact, so,
>> while it is a shame, we've got to consider it. No ifs, ands, or buts.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bryan Peterson"<bpeterson2000 at cableone.net>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>>
>>
>>> Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to
>>> wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because
>>> we are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out
>>> endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could
>>> find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd
>>> also have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention
>>> licensing. That's partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an
>>> excuse, it's cold hard fact.
>>> We are the Knights who say...Ni!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "clement chou"<chou.clement at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as
>>>> well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that.
>>>> There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I
>>>> think bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank
>>>> Commander, while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens
>>>> wouldn't be amiss either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I
>>>> for one would be interested in taking that job. especially since the
>>>> cutseens are simply recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the
>>>> same games I brought up, with online features, would be great. I can
>>>> only imagine playing shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other
>>>> people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. It would be
>>>> great.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Yohandy"<yohandy85 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
>>>> Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the
>>>>> fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if
>>>>> they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out
>>>>> just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then
>>>>> after that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is
>>>>> hurting the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential
>>>>> customers. what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even
>>>>> willing to pay for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the
>>>>> time. let's say a new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are
>>>>> added after the initial game release, the developer could charge $5
>>>>> for those additional levels and those interested will purchase it. or
>>>>> offer the downloadable content free and sell even more copies of that
>>>>> particular game. people get bored of the same old stuff, especially if
>>>>> the game doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't
>>>>> understand why this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the only
>>>>> problem. I think it's about time developers start adding an online
>>>>> component to their titles to make games a more social experience. no
>>>>> offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online
>>>>> and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band
>>>>> than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with
>>>>> people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even if
>>>>> street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much
>>>>> more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the
>>>>> trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in
>>>>> fact there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street
>>>>> Fighter IV and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make
>>>>> such claims about audio games? back to online features. even the few
>>>>> audiogames that have online playability, we actually have to
>>>>> communicate through text, when most mainstream games are using voice
>>>>> chat, and even video chat! Is it all that difficult to add voice chat
>>>>> to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking because I like to be informed
>>>>> on these things. This is why when people ask me if we'll ever catch up
>>>>> to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll never happen. devs
>>>>> need to really start concentrating on what the gamers want. and please
>>>>> I don't want to hear the "oh but audio games are only a 1 man
>>>>> operation" excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that
>>>>> long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do,
>>>>> and get together and form a programming team. but give us something
>>>>> good. something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow!
>>>>> this game completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it
>>>>> stands now, most of the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in
>>>>> about an hour or so and never play it again, and this is probably true
>>>>> for many people on here. something needs to change, and it's up to
>>>>> all of us, developers and gamers alike to make it happen!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>>> list,
>>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
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>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:15:44 +1000
From: "Lisa Hayes"<lhayes2 at internode.on.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
Message-ID:<8B210C6A846D4CE9BF6575C0ADD31627 at pc1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
so the heck would I. I've got ideas, but no programming knowledge.
Lisa Hayes
www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Rivard"<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
> Any interest in learning the programming in order to help the cause? If I
> had the time, I would.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yohandy"<yohandy85 at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>
>
>> ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just
>> keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio
>> games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your
>> own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll
>> still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it
>> should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space
>> invaders clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating
>> thing is most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great
>> games to. Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know
>> what's out there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to
>> play troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply
>> frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good
>> games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have
>> and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but
>> because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again,
>> perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your
>> money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about
>> purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming
>> wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm
>> write or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never
>> happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming
>> convention out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it
>> on iphones.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charles Rivard"<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>>
>>
>>> Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to
>>> produce? More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on
>>> one project? Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Yohandy"<yohandy85 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
>>> Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
>>>
>>>
>>>> when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the
>>>> fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if
>>>> they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out
>>>> just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after
>>>> that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting
>>>> the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers.
>>>> what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay
>>>> for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a
>>>> new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the
>>>> initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those
>>>> additional levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the
>>>> downloadable content free and sell even more copies of that particular
>>>> game. people get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game
>>>> doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why
>>>> this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I
>>>> think it's about time developers start adding an online component to
>>>> their titles to make games a more social experience. no offense to any
>>>> developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few
>>>> rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play most
>>>> accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing
>>>> the exact same offline mode over and over. even if street fighter
>>>> didn't have online features it would have been much more replayable
>>>> than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode the
>>>> game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are
>>>> people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the
>>>> game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about
>>>> audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have
>>>> online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when
>>>> most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it
>>>> all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm
>>>> asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when
>>>> people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell
>>>> them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating
>>>> on what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the "oh but
>>>> audio games are only a 1 man operation" excuse. Take 10 years to
>>>> develop your game if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the
>>>> same programming language you do, and get together and form a
>>>> programming team. but give us something good. something that we can be
>>>> proud of 15 years from now and say wow! this game completely
>>>> revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands now, most of the
>>>> audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an hour or so and
>>>> never play it again, and this is probably true for many people on here.
>>>> something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, developers and
>>>> gamers alike to make it happen!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
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>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 05:21:16 +0100
From: "dark"<dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
Message-ID:<A3EB27FC489C4E27A68762A188AB9274 at ownere8ba8066c>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Hi Yohandi,
firstly, I will point out that many games actually do do the expantion bit
your talking about. Entombed, rail racer, sound rts, che's card games
topspeed, all have lots of expandable content, through user created
stuff, --- in fact Ithink this is really going to take off when entombed's
dungeon creator is released.
Second, as regards online play, that is already being added to as many games
in as efficient a way as possible, ==== sound rts and toc already have this
and as Phil said it's looking at being added to more games, however lso bare
in mind there are people (myself included), who are more concerned about a
complete single player experience than online interaction, ---- so saying
"all games should have this" doesn't take into account our taste.
finally, the most major and complete thing to remember is resources.
Capcom had a massive team of people working on Streetfighter Iv for four a
pretty solid couple of years. For Streetfighter I don't know figures, but i
do know the latest mortal combat titles have about 100-150 full time
programmers working on the game, testing it, putting it through it's paces.
Find 150 programmers who will work on an audio game for 2 years, --- and
then you might well get the same result.
For a fairer comparison it's more reasonable to compare audio games to
independent graphical pc games developed with a similar amount of resources
and by a similar number of people.
One game for example which I play (not accessible unfortunately), is the
game Hurrican.
This is a very large exploration 2D platform shooter similar to Metroid or
Mega man.
it has many features, great sound and environments, and even a level
creation tool which some people have used to make extra levels. However,
while it's certainly as good as games produced 15 years ago on the
Snes, ---- and graphically probably equaling a ps1 game, ---- can it equal
games produced now? ---- hell no!
And how long did it take to develope? ---- five! years! yes, five! years!
for a game which is 10-15 years behind what is produced by companies like
capcom.
That is really the bottom line. Comparing audio games to games like
streetfighter Iv, is like comparing a delivery boy with a bicicle to UPs,
and asking why the delivery boy can't have that package in Hongkong tomorrow
morning!
Beware the grue!
Dark.
------------------------------
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End of Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 191
***************************************
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Josh Kennedy jkenn337 at gmail.com
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