[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Valerie Gibson valandkayla at gmail.com
Fri Sep 3 06:16:04 UTC 2010


Hi,

It's so irronic that i'm just reading these posts, because i was sort of wondering where to go from here as far as the training carrer.  I haven't heard back from the guy i talked to at the NFB headquarters, though i need to check my spam folder to make sure and email didn't get lost in there.

As for the artificial hand:  I know exactly what you're talking about.  I too have seen that on Animal Planet, and i could have kicked myself for not thinking of it as well. it's a very good suggestion, i'd think.
As for anyone who works with dogs, I would love to pick your brains offlist, to see about getting some ideas, as i will need them if i'm going to fight the school on this.

I also plan on finding some reputable dog training mailing lists to get on, and see if  i can't find, evena sighted person, who's willing to think outside of the box when it comes to this.

I will keep you all posted, And i think you for your comments.  Thsi seemingly random rediscussion of the topic has boosted my spirits on the matter quite a bit.

So, again, thank you, and I'm still allears to any more comments.
On Sep 2, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> I just thought of something that hasn't been brought up yet in regards
> to dog aggression. While it wouldn't be smart to touch a dog to see
> what it is doing, you *could* use an artificial hand to tst the dog.
> You know, like what they use in rescue shelters sometimes to test a
> dog's temperament? I know I've seen it on Animal Planet on one of
> those animal rescue shows...It's basically a plastic hand on a stick
> (the stick is like 3 feet long). You extend the hand and pet the dog
> with the hand. If the dog doesn't attack the hand, they are unlikely
> to attack you. However, you can tell if the dog doesn't like touch
> period, because the aggressive dogs will attack the hand...one dog on
> the show bit off two of the fingers of the plastic hand! This hand is
> used to pet the dog without worry of being bitten yourself, and is
> also used to pull food away from the dog while s/he is eating to test
> food aggression, and to pull away toys to test toy aggression. I think
> using a fake hand (I don't know the trainer term for it, but I know
> they use it with aggressive dog testing) would be very useful for a
> blind person testing for aggression. It would also come in handy
> teting a cat...I think I'd rather the plastic hand get scratched then
> my soon-to-be bloody hand!
> 
> Just an idea that popped into my head,
> Jewel
> 
> On 9/2/10, Jen&Nixon <jenandnixon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Megan is correct, some dogs can exhibit silent cues, barring teeth, averted
>> eyes, and sometimes raise their hairs before an oncoming attack, however,
>> once the attack starts, they will start to develop snarling and growling.
>> Hope those descriptions can help.
>> 
>> 
>> Jennifer McEachen and "Nixon"
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc.
>> Alumni Association Board of Directors and secretary
>> jenandnixon at gmail.com / jmceachen at guidedogs.com
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Meghan Whalen
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I don't
>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>> 
>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues that
>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to figure
>> out obstacle with a cane.
>> 
>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification is
>> needed.
>> 
>> Meghan
>> I'm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> 
>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It would
>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a sighted
>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying to
>> 
>>> advocate.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering
>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think.
>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>>> 
>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give
>> 
>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>>> 
>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>> 
>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>> 
>>>> Val
>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>> students.
>>> 
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>> 
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>> 
>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>> you.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Val!
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Justin
>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer
>> 
>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll
>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to
>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
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