[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Fri Sep 3 07:21:11 UTC 2010

Please do keep us updated on this. I have become very interested in
your career progress, and am keeping my fingers crossed for you that
you can get the school to see things your way. We're all rooting for
you!

~Jewel

On 9/3/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It's so irronic that i'm just reading these posts, because i was sort of
> wondering where to go from here as far as the training carrer.  I haven't
> heard back from the guy i talked to at the NFB headquarters, though i need
> to check my spam folder to make sure and email didn't get lost in there.
>
> As for the artificial hand:  I know exactly what you're talking about.  I
> too have seen that on Animal Planet, and i could have kicked myself for not
> thinking of it as well. it's a very good suggestion, i'd think.
> As for anyone who works with dogs, I would love to pick your brains offlist,
> to see about getting some ideas, as i will need them if i'm going to fight
> the school on this.
>
> I also plan on finding some reputable dog training mailing lists to get on,
> and see if  i can't find, evena sighted person, who's willing to think
> outside of the box when it comes to this.
>
> I will keep you all posted, And i think you for your comments.  Thsi
> seemingly random rediscussion of the topic has boosted my spirits on the
> matter quite a bit.
>
> So, again, thank you, and I'm still allears to any more comments.
> On Sep 2, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> I just thought of something that hasn't been brought up yet in regards
>> to dog aggression. While it wouldn't be smart to touch a dog to see
>> what it is doing, you *could* use an artificial hand to tst the dog.
>> You know, like what they use in rescue shelters sometimes to test a
>> dog's temperament? I know I've seen it on Animal Planet on one of
>> those animal rescue shows...It's basically a plastic hand on a stick
>> (the stick is like 3 feet long). You extend the hand and pet the dog
>> with the hand. If the dog doesn't attack the hand, they are unlikely
>> to attack you. However, you can tell if the dog doesn't like touch
>> period, because the aggressive dogs will attack the hand...one dog on
>> the show bit off two of the fingers of the plastic hand! This hand is
>> used to pet the dog without worry of being bitten yourself, and is
>> also used to pull food away from the dog while s/he is eating to test
>> food aggression, and to pull away toys to test toy aggression. I think
>> using a fake hand (I don't know the trainer term for it, but I know
>> they use it with aggressive dog testing) would be very useful for a
>> blind person testing for aggression. It would also come in handy
>> teting a cat...I think I'd rather the plastic hand get scratched then
>> my soon-to-be bloody hand!
>>
>> Just an idea that popped into my head,
>> Jewel
>>
>> On 9/2/10, Jen&Nixon <jenandnixon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Megan is correct, some dogs can exhibit silent cues, barring teeth,
>>> averted
>>> eyes, and sometimes raise their hairs before an oncoming attack, however,
>>> once the attack starts, they will start to develop snarling and growling.
>>> Hope those descriptions can help.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jennifer McEachen and "Nixon"
>>> Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc.
>>> Alumni Association Board of Directors and secretary
>>> jenandnixon at gmail.com / jmceachen at guidedogs.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Meghan Whalen
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:25 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>
>>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I
>>> don't
>>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>>>
>>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues
>>> that
>>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to
>>> figure
>>> out obstacle with a cane.
>>>
>>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification
>>> is
>>> needed.
>>>
>>> Meghan
>>> I'm
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>
>>>
>>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It
>>>> would
>>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a
>>>> sighted
>>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying
>>>> to
>>>
>>>> advocate.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>>>> altering
>>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would
>>>>> think.
>>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>>>>
>>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to
>>>>> give
>>>
>>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>>>>
>>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>>>
>>>>> Val
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>>> students.
>>>>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared.
>>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Val!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog
>>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time
>>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
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-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com