[nabs-l] waver

Mon Jan 10 02:04:36 UTC 2011

?
There it is.  This is what I was pointing out.  If a course isn't needed for 
your major like a "filler course as there called" why should you waist your 
time being non-productive.  It's like putting a person at a job their not 
good at.  So lets say I had two blind people joe and Frank.  Joe was good at 
filing papers and Frank wasn't and fumbled and had a hard time and even with 
training himself didn't really pick up speed.  So are all blind people the 
same or should we be fighting that we are all different and that we should 
be looked as such.
Rob
-----Original Message----- 
From: Dennis Clark
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 8:57 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver

Hello humberto,
You have raised an interesting question, but I think my analysis leads me to
a different conclusion than you reach.  My thinking is that if one is a
blind person working in, or hoping to work in the private sector, efficiency
is much more important than independence.  If you as a blind person can do a
job "independently" as quickly as a sighted person can do the job, or as
quickly as you can do it as a blind person with sighted assistance, then you
are golden.  However, if you are functioning independently, but working
slower than a sighted person, then you are not independent.  Why should I as
an employer be happy about writing you a paycheck when you took longer to do
the job, and cost me more money than would have been true if you were a
sighted employee?  How is your independence supposed to make me feel better
about the higher cost of hiring you?

The post which initiated this discussion concerned using M.S. Project with a
screen reader.  I have some experience with this program, and no one is
going to be able to use most of the features of this program with a screen
reader.  Among other things it displays pert and ghant charts to convey
information about a project, it uses diagrams to convey critical path
analysis, etc.  Its purpose is to use relational pictures to quickly convey
project flow and bottlenecks.  How can a screen reader be used to convey
this kind of pictorial information?

Perhaps at some time in the future, way in the future, we will be able to
load up every blind person with all the hardware and software necessary to
make us virtually sighted, and therefore "independent."  For this to
actually happen, technology for sighted people is going to need to come to a
screeching halt, so that we can have the necessary time to adapt what is
already there to make it accessible.  Consider this.  If technology
continues to evolve for sighted people, and if we assume at least an 18
month delay to make the existing products accessible to us, we will always
be 18 months behind our sighted colleagues.  Moreover, the lifecycle of
today's products is hardly longer than 18 months, so by the time our
adaptive software and hardware is available, the next release is sold to the
employers and sighted public and we are once again behind, and not
independent.   Of course we cannot halt continuing development for sighted
people, so our ability to access and use products in the work place
independently, is going to continue to lag behind unless manufacturers can
be forced to make their products accessible to the blind the day they are
released to the sighted public generally.  I think, though possibly
incorrectly, that the NFB is opposed to forcing manufacturers to make their
products accessible to us, so what is the solution.

I also wonder how blind people are going to become rich enough to buy all
these independence goodies.  What portion of the NFB membership or blind
people in this country are living on either SSI or SSDI?  I think this
places us as a group way below the poverty level, and unless something
changes in a major way, I don't see many of us owning homes, automated cars
which will drive us around, or even the software and hardware we need to
make us functional, let alone independent.  An idea or "philosophy" if we
want to elevate the independence idea to this level, is only valid or
worthwhile, if it can withstand reality testing.  If it cannot, then it is
nothing more than a fantasy which is interfering with our progress, not
advancing it.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "humberto" <humbertoa5369 at netzero.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver

> Hello all.
> I can understand your points about readers and being able to get 
> assistance in college. I understand that even sighted people request 
> assistance, I don't blame them for that. I know things can be done this 
> way, but isn't it the goal of the National Federation of the blind and the 
> blind ourselves to be as independent as the sighted? Can't we do and fight 
> for our freedom just like the sighted?
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com
>>To: Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>, National
> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:05:53 -0700
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
>>Hi Josh and all,
>
>>I can think of very few cases in which getting a course waived
> because
>>of blindness is justifiable. I know this has been mentioned
> already,
>>but in my experience almost any course can be completed with the
> help
>>of a good human reader, regardless of the accessibility of
> necessary
>>software. A reader will be much, much less expensive than
> SuperNova or
>>other software.
>
>>I think one of the biggest misconceptions, held by blind and
> sighted
>>people alike, is that if a blind person can't do a task
> independently,
>>they can't do the task at all. But decades of blind students who
> were
>>educated prior to the computer era have proven that true success
> is
>>possible through appropriate collaborations with readers and
> other
>>assistants. Many state agencies for the blind have provisions in
> their
>>statutes requiring them to pay for reader services. If not, it is
>>possible to hire readers on a volunteer basis, offering to
> provide a
>>service such as food, babysitting, etc. as compensation or
> working
>>with volunteers from an organization that requires them to
> complete
>>service hours. Many college clubs, such as fraternities and
> sororities
>>or service organizations, or even groups at a church or other
>>religious organizations require their members to perform
> volunteer
>>service.
>
>>For example, I have been successful thus far in my doctoral
> program in
>>psychology despite not being able to independently enter data or
> make
>>poster presentations. I work with research assistants who enter
> the
>>data and help me with formatting my posters and graphical
>>presentations of my research. I also cannot independently grade
>>handwritten tests for my teaching assistant jobs, but I can do so
> by
>>working with a reader who reads the tests to me. It would be a
> real
>>shame if I, or someone in my graduate program, thought I couldn't
>>participate in the program because I can't do these tasks all by
>>myself. Similarly, some people think a blind person cannot teach
>>elementary school because they cannot watch all the kids at once
> and
>>ascertain whether they are fooling around silently during class.
> Yet
>>many blind elementary school teachers work with assistants who
> help
>>with visual classroom monitoring so they are free to instruct the
>>class. In both of these cases, the blind person is still
> performing
>>the important work. I still independently develop the content for
> my
>>data presentations and I decide what grades students will get on
> their
>>tests after the reader has told me what the students wrote. The
> blind
>>teacher is still the one in charge of the classroom and the one
> who
>>decides how mischievous students will be disciplined after they
> are
>>identified by the teacher's aide. It is also important to
> remember
>>that in many of these professions, sighted people also work with
>>similar kinds of assistants. Some sighted teachers have
>>paraprofessionals (teacher's aides). Although my sighted
> classmates
>>don't use their RA's to help them with presentations, they do
> often
>>work with RA's who provide data entry assistance.
>
>>My point is that I would caution against saying something is
>>impossible just because it can't be done without assistance. Of
>>course, the ideal is to have software designed to be accessible
> out of
>>the box so we can do everything independently. But until that day
>>comes, I would not give up on a class or an activity until all
>>options, including use of human readers, have been exhausted.
>
>>Good luck!
>>Arielle
>
>>On 1/9/11, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Josh,
>>> Sorry to be blunt but your ideas seem like dreams.  Do you think
> your voc
>>> rehab agency will buy you a different screen reader for one
> class?  I highly
>>> doubt it because budgets are tight and its not cost effective to
> buy
>>> something you'll use three months.  Any adaptive technology
> purchase has to
>>> be justifiable and related to your employment goal.
>>> Next for the companies to script their screen readers and make
> them
>>> accessible its a large undertaking and will not happen in the
> time you need
>>> it to.  Even if you take a semester off as you said you would,
> do you think
>>> the companies will be ready?  Did you ask them the time frame of
> the
>>> scripting process?
>>> If MS project is graphical it may not be something that is
> rendered
>>> accessible; some software is just not.
>>> Also there needs to be a large demand for this.  Are many blind
> people
>>> needing Ms project and made the request? I have no idea.
>
>>> Rather than getting a waver, I suggest some things.  Hire a
> reader to help
>>> you; get a course substitution for the class.  Could you use
> another program
>>> to accomplish the same goals of the class?
>
>>> Anyway, good luck figuring this out but I don't think asking
> companies to
>>> script their software, and expecting it to be ready soon is a
> realistic
>>> idea.
>
>>> Ashley
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:13 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] waver
>
>
>>>> Hi
>
>>>> I used to think I would need a waver for this project management
> class.
>>>> You see if I can get gwmicro or serotek or both to make their
> readers
>>>> accessible, great. if not, I will get voc rehab to get me
> supernova.
>>>> supernova is the only screen reader which makes ms-project2007
> and 2010
>>>> accessible.
>
>>>> Josh
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
>>--
>>Arielle Silverman
>>President, National Association of Blind Students
>>Phone:  602-502-2255
>>Email:
>>nabs.president at gmail.com
>>Website:
>>www.nabslink.org
>
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>
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