[nabs-l] waver

Mon Jan 10 02:18:40 UTC 2011

Okay, I am trying to tread carefully here. As a person who is blind, I do 
not like to admit that there are things that I cannot do. In most cases, 
that is not true. If there is a will, there is a way. However, I do admit 
that there is a limit to this. There are things that I cannot do. I am not 
going to name them here because I do not want to start a debate, as this 
limit is different for all of us. However, I do think that how something 
could be achieved should at least be considered before just saying that it 
is not possible.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver

> ?
> There it is.  This is what I was pointing out.  If a course isn't needed 
> for your major like a "filler course as there called" why should you waist 
> your time being non-productive.  It's like putting a person at a job their 
> not good at.  So lets say I had two blind people joe and Frank.  Joe was 
> good at filing papers and Frank wasn't and fumbled and had a hard time and 
> even with training himself didn't really pick up speed.  So are all blind 
> people the same or should we be fighting that we are all different and 
> that we should be looked as such.
> Rob
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Dennis Clark
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 8:57 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
> Hello humberto,
> You have raised an interesting question, but I think my analysis leads me 
> to
> a different conclusion than you reach.  My thinking is that if one is a
> blind person working in, or hoping to work in the private sector, 
> efficiency
> is much more important than independence.  If you as a blind person can do 
> a
> job "independently" as quickly as a sighted person can do the job, or as
> quickly as you can do it as a blind person with sighted assistance, then 
> you
> are golden.  However, if you are functioning independently, but working
> slower than a sighted person, then you are not independent.  Why should I 
> as
> an employer be happy about writing you a paycheck when you took longer to 
> do
> the job, and cost me more money than would have been true if you were a
> sighted employee?  How is your independence supposed to make me feel 
> better
> about the higher cost of hiring you?
>
> The post which initiated this discussion concerned using M.S. Project with 
> a
> screen reader.  I have some experience with this program, and no one is
> going to be able to use most of the features of this program with a screen
> reader.  Among other things it displays pert and ghant charts to convey
> information about a project, it uses diagrams to convey critical path
> analysis, etc.  Its purpose is to use relational pictures to quickly 
> convey
> project flow and bottlenecks.  How can a screen reader be used to convey
> this kind of pictorial information?
>
> Perhaps at some time in the future, way in the future, we will be able to
> load up every blind person with all the hardware and software necessary to
> make us virtually sighted, and therefore "independent."  For this to
> actually happen, technology for sighted people is going to need to come to 
> a
> screeching halt, so that we can have the necessary time to adapt what is
> already there to make it accessible.  Consider this.  If technology
> continues to evolve for sighted people, and if we assume at least an 18
> month delay to make the existing products accessible to us, we will always
> be 18 months behind our sighted colleagues.  Moreover, the lifecycle of
> today's products is hardly longer than 18 months, so by the time our
> adaptive software and hardware is available, the next release is sold to 
> the
> employers and sighted public and we are once again behind, and not
> independent.   Of course we cannot halt continuing development for sighted
> people, so our ability to access and use products in the work place
> independently, is going to continue to lag behind unless manufacturers can
> be forced to make their products accessible to the blind the day they are
> released to the sighted public generally.  I think, though possibly
> incorrectly, that the NFB is opposed to forcing manufacturers to make 
> their
> products accessible to us, so what is the solution.
>
> I also wonder how blind people are going to become rich enough to buy all
> these independence goodies.  What portion of the NFB membership or blind
> people in this country are living on either SSI or SSDI?  I think this
> places us as a group way below the poverty level, and unless something
> changes in a major way, I don't see many of us owning homes, automated 
> cars
> which will drive us around, or even the software and hardware we need to
> make us functional, let alone independent.  An idea or "philosophy" if we
> want to elevate the independence idea to this level, is only valid or
> worthwhile, if it can withstand reality testing.  If it cannot, then it is
> nothing more than a fantasy which is interfering with our progress, not
> advancing it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "humberto" <humbertoa5369 at netzero.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
>
>> Hello all.
>> I can understand your points about readers and being able to get 
>> assistance in college. I understand that even sighted people request 
>> assistance, I don't blame them for that. I know things can be done this 
>> way, but isn't it the goal of the National Federation of the blind and 
>> the blind ourselves to be as independent as the sighted? Can't we do and 
>> fight for our freedom just like the sighted?
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>To: Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>, National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>Date sent: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:05:53 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>>
>>>Hi Josh and all,
>>
>>>I can think of very few cases in which getting a course waived
>> because
>>>of blindness is justifiable. I know this has been mentioned
>> already,
>>>but in my experience almost any course can be completed with the
>> help
>>>of a good human reader, regardless of the accessibility of
>> necessary
>>>software. A reader will be much, much less expensive than
>> SuperNova or
>>>other software.
>>
>>>I think one of the biggest misconceptions, held by blind and
>> sighted
>>>people alike, is that if a blind person can't do a task
>> independently,
>>>they can't do the task at all. But decades of blind students who
>> were
>>>educated prior to the computer era have proven that true success
>> is
>>>possible through appropriate collaborations with readers and
>> other
>>>assistants. Many state agencies for the blind have provisions in
>> their
>>>statutes requiring them to pay for reader services. If not, it is
>>>possible to hire readers on a volunteer basis, offering to
>> provide a
>>>service such as food, babysitting, etc. as compensation or
>> working
>>>with volunteers from an organization that requires them to
>> complete
>>>service hours. Many college clubs, such as fraternities and
>> sororities
>>>or service organizations, or even groups at a church or other
>>>religious organizations require their members to perform
>> volunteer
>>>service.
>>
>>>For example, I have been successful thus far in my doctoral
>> program in
>>>psychology despite not being able to independently enter data or
>> make
>>>poster presentations. I work with research assistants who enter
>> the
>>>data and help me with formatting my posters and graphical
>>>presentations of my research. I also cannot independently grade
>>>handwritten tests for my teaching assistant jobs, but I can do so
>> by
>>>working with a reader who reads the tests to me. It would be a
>> real
>>>shame if I, or someone in my graduate program, thought I couldn't
>>>participate in the program because I can't do these tasks all by
>>>myself. Similarly, some people think a blind person cannot teach
>>>elementary school because they cannot watch all the kids at once
>> and
>>>ascertain whether they are fooling around silently during class.
>> Yet
>>>many blind elementary school teachers work with assistants who
>> help
>>>with visual classroom monitoring so they are free to instruct the
>>>class. In both of these cases, the blind person is still
>> performing
>>>the important work. I still independently develop the content for
>> my
>>>data presentations and I decide what grades students will get on
>> their
>>>tests after the reader has told me what the students wrote. The
>> blind
>>>teacher is still the one in charge of the classroom and the one
>> who
>>>decides how mischievous students will be disciplined after they
>> are
>>>identified by the teacher's aide. It is also important to
>> remember
>>>that in many of these professions, sighted people also work with
>>>similar kinds of assistants. Some sighted teachers have
>>>paraprofessionals (teacher's aides). Although my sighted
>> classmates
>>>don't use their RA's to help them with presentations, they do
>> often
>>>work with RA's who provide data entry assistance.
>>
>>>My point is that I would caution against saying something is
>>>impossible just because it can't be done without assistance. Of
>>>course, the ideal is to have software designed to be accessible
>> out of
>>>the box so we can do everything independently. But until that day
>>>comes, I would not give up on a class or an activity until all
>>>options, including use of human readers, have been exhausted.
>>
>>>Good luck!
>>>Arielle
>>
>>>On 1/9/11, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Josh,
>>>> Sorry to be blunt but your ideas seem like dreams.  Do you think
>> your voc
>>>> rehab agency will buy you a different screen reader for one
>> class?  I highly
>>>> doubt it because budgets are tight and its not cost effective to
>> buy
>>>> something you'll use three months.  Any adaptive technology
>> purchase has to
>>>> be justifiable and related to your employment goal.
>>>> Next for the companies to script their screen readers and make
>> them
>>>> accessible its a large undertaking and will not happen in the
>> time you need
>>>> it to.  Even if you take a semester off as you said you would,
>> do you think
>>>> the companies will be ready?  Did you ask them the time frame of
>> the
>>>> scripting process?
>>>> If MS project is graphical it may not be something that is
>> rendered
>>>> accessible; some software is just not.
>>>> Also there needs to be a large demand for this.  Are many blind
>> people
>>>> needing Ms project and made the request? I have no idea.
>>
>>>> Rather than getting a waver, I suggest some things.  Hire a
>> reader to help
>>>> you; get a course substitution for the class.  Could you use
>> another program
>>>> to accomplish the same goals of the class?
>>
>>>> Anyway, good luck figuring this out but I don't think asking
>> companies to
>>>> script their software, and expecting it to be ready soon is a
>> realistic
>>>> idea.
>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:13 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] waver
>>
>>
>>>>> Hi
>>
>>>>> I used to think I would need a waver for this project management
>> class.
>>>>> You see if I can get gwmicro or serotek or both to make their
>> readers
>>>>> accessible, great. if not, I will get voc rehab to get me
>> supernova.
>>>>> supernova is the only screen reader which makes ms-project2007
>> and 2010
>>>>> accessible.
>>
>>>>> Josh
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> hb%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>Arielle Silverman
>>>President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>Email:
>>>nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>Website:
>>>www.nabslink.org
>>
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>> for nabs-l:
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>> 5369%40netzero.net
>>
>>
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>
>
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