[nabs-l] BLIO READER
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Tue Jan 11 21:26:46 UTC 2011
Josh,
Some of these issues are just more complicated than it seems. I am one who believes it is not in our interest to have
Microsoft provide a full-featured screen reader with Windows at this time, and a number of other people, not all in the
NFB, feel the same way. Some aspects are changing, though. As we see how VoiceOver continues to evolve on the
apple and as we see how Windows changes, it is not a certainty that Microsoft won't have to do the same thing.
Before you ask, though, I receive no kickbacks from anybody and I do not work for any assistive technology
companies.
If you are going to succeed in the career goals you have, you really need to take some time to learn about how screen
readers work and what the differences truly are. You have to learn some about off-screen models, Microsoft Active
Accessibility, UI Automation, and IAccessible2 which all play a role in determining which screen readers work on
which applications. Scripts are also not always the answer. There are two limiting factors to how scripts can work.
First, a script can only work with the functions that a screen reader makes available. Second, a script has to have a
predictable way to get information from the application being scripted. Screen readers do not all have the same
functionality. What this means is that it is not always possible to make up for accessibility with a script. I do not
honestly know if all of the building blocks are there to make MS project completely accessible or not. I do know that
Nova, for example, is particularly strong in analyzing graphics, so it makes some sense to me that it might work with
MS project better than other screen readers. It is quite possible that Nova has some functionality that none of the
other screen readers have that might make MS project workable. When looking at scripts, it is good to consider that it
is quite possible that paying someone for 20 hours of scripting time may well cost more than purchasing Nova.
NVDA is particularly strong on the newer technologies that are used by software, but there are some older
technologies that are still in use that are supported better by JFW and Window-Eyes. I have not tried the latest
versions of NVDA or System Access, but when I last tried them a little less than a year ago, neither worked well on
some of the software that I need to use on the job, and from what I could tell, scripting would not have made them
work. There are still cases where the expensive screen readers work where the cheaper ones do not.
On the one hand, you wonder why other programs are not free like NVDA, and then you later wonder why NVDA only
has two developers. The more expensive screen readers are able to afford more developers which is part of what you
are paying for. Serotek does not have many developers either, but they have at least one with a lot of tallent. One
worries some what might happen to them if that developer were to leave.
One of the things I worry about is how we could count on Microsoft to make a screen reader they developed work
well with products that compete with other Microsoft products. I don't think that they would intentionally not support
competing products, but it would probably be understandable that they would support their own products first and
perhaps never get to the competition. Also, both JFW and Window-Eyes are better programs because of each other.
There are things that neither program would have done if they had not been afraid that the other would do it. A full-
featured screen reader built into Windows would make other screen readers quite unnecessary eliminating the
competition.
One can ask then, what about Apple? There are a number of ways that apple functions differently than Microsoft.
Apple controls more closely the applications written for it so they have more influence as to how applications deal with
accessibility. This makes the job of writing a screen reader for the MAC just a little easier. Even so, we will need to
keep a watchful eye over time to make sure that the apple screen reader, VoiceOver, doesn't get pushed to the back
burner. Apple has done a nice job, but they pretty much had to do something to get government sales, and we'll have
to see how they do when the good publicity has run its course. This is not meant to take anything away from Apple,
but we are still pretty early in the life of VoiceOver to really know how it will work in the long run.
What about readers? You are at a disadvantage there because of going to an on-line college and living in a smaller
town. However, do you think some of the rest of us were born with a reader? We had to go out and find them in a
number of ways. Your VR might resist paying for readers, but it is something they are authorized to do to help with
college courses, and it is something colleges also do, although I don't know how that applies to on=-line colleges. If
you take the MS Project class, it isn't to learn how to use accessible software, it is to learn what MS Project does and
probably to learn some of the ins and outs of project management. If you can get it to work with a screen reader, that
would indeed be nice, but it is possible to get what you need out of the course with a reader, and those of us here
could halpe you with ideas on finding readers. You would have to check into funding, though from your counselor.
You also need to find out how much of the course actually involves physically using MS Project. I find it hard to
believe that the entire course is just in using it, there are likely other materials having to do with project planning that
you would need to master as well with some of the time. I think you really have to think about how you can prevent
this problem with MS Project from keeping you from reaching your goal. Those of us who are working have to deal all
the time with materials that are not accessible, and it is just a part of life. Certainly we need to keep working to
increase the accessibility of software, but we also can't just wait for everything to be accessible, we have to find ways
to get the job done in the meantime.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:24:31 -0500, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
>Josh,]
>aYour best option is to call the company.
>Not everyone knows about the blio reader. I guess not everything is
>accessible because the blind community is a small market and accessibility
>is not thought of when designing products.
>There are companies who do scripting for products but they cost money for
>their services.
>Maybe you can work out a payment plan with them. In my area SSB bart group
>does scripting.
>Having someone pay for it to be scripted such as a lions club would be the
>best option. Call around and see what your options are.
>It bothers me when people think the only solution is turning to voc rehab.
>VR is slow and counselors are less likely to give you what you need with
>budget cuts.
>So look into it yourself. Call the company; write letters.
>All your messages say "its unfair things are not accessible. What is taking
>so long." I wonder too; its not fair but there is not too much we can do
>about it.
>Things do cost money; so if money is an issue unfortunately your options are
>also limited.
>I hope things work out though.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
>To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:45 AM
>Subject: [nabs-l] BLIO READER
>> Hi
>>
>> So when is the blio reader going to be accessible? Also why are we still
>> paying $1300 for jaws and similar price for window-eyes when NVDA is
>> already scriptable? Guys in order for me not to get a waver for my future
>> microsoft project course I need access to that software. Voc rehab will
>> have to buy window-eyes, supernova or jaws plus pay who knows how much to
>> script it to work with project. So why doesn't the nfb organise and get
>> people with the talent to start writing appModules for NVDA? Or write
>> serotek and ask them to support more software applications? I don't have
>> access to readers in rural berks county pennsylvania. Also why is the blio
>> reader still not accessible? They said it would be accessible in October
>> and blindbargains says that so far it only works with jaws. Well guys I
>> have a free open source scriptable screen reader right here and even if I
>> had the money I wouldn't spend $1295 or so on jaws12. Why should I? nvda
>> and system access do most of what I want. I tried learning python and
>> failed. Not everybody can be a programmer just like not everybody can be
>> an auto-mechanic fixing cars. System access works with mostly everything I
>> need except for project. So can we all here on the nabs-l list write
>> serotek asking for ms-project support? I don't really have access to
>> readers. Neither can I pay for them. I would rather do the work myself,
>> learn and experience ms-project for myself. and then the question is since
>> nvda2011.1 will be out soon all 2010.2 scripts or appmodules will be
>> broken.
>> I want to take this project class if I can. nvda scripting obviously is
>> not stable yet. I bought serotek's build a bundle system access a few days
>> ago. I'm a paying customer and I need access to ms-project2007-2010.
>> Sometimes I get the feeling that money takes precedence over making a
>> program accessible. Don't you guys see that if serotek added ms-project
>> support or if nvda got their scripting stable and added it these low cost
>> screen readers would be even more useful? Oh I can't wait to see the day,
>> if it even happens that system access and nvda become the leading screen
>> readers on the market. And when I graduate and when I get to baltimore and
>> join the nfb I am going to push and push and push for widespread nvda
>> scripting and widespread serotek product use. As soon as I can I'm getting
>> docuscanplus and serotek's hoverCam neo or HoverCam mini. Blindbargains
>> wrote an article in the top stories of 2010. In the article they said the
>> reason or part of the reason windows narrator did not become a full screen
>> reader was because microsoft caved into pressure from the nfb and other
>> organizations so that the $1300 screen reader would remain in the forfront
>> of the computer accessibility market. my question is why? and is this even
>> true or are blindbargains' claims false? If I need a waver and have to
>> replace the project class with another I will but I'd rather not go that
>> route. I have two screen readers on here with the potential to give me
>> microsoft project accessibility. Now if ms-project accessibility were
>> implemented in either software it would benefit many blind people and
>> increase our job opportunities. Freedom scientific is disappointing.
>> They're up to jaws12 but they only support project2000? Perhaps someone at
>> capella could at least script nvda2010.2 to make it work. So far there are
>> still two developers, only two, working on nvda. why are there not more?
>> Freedom scientific and gw-micro don't even want to seem to even hear that
>> nvda exists and is getting better. Serotek on the other hand acknowledges
>> nvda's existance. If I ever would win the lottery I would spend as much
>> money as needed hire developers and I would make nvda the leading screen
>> reader followed by system access. I wonder if gw and fs are afraid of nvda
>> and system access taking over? or could it be the different state agencies
>> who are afraid of that happening? I wonder if there's some conspiracy
>> going on keeping the blind community for the most part locked into using
>> gw and fs products? System access reads charts in excel and I only have to
>> pay $10 per month to get access to that or go to satogo.com and use it
>> that way. It just makes me mad that even after I make the agency get me a
>> mac, with windows7, as soon as I need something scripted they won't even
>> look at nvda they instead gravitate to jaws or window-eyes. This has to be
>> changed.
>>
>> Josh
>>
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