[nabs-l] Waver

[Marc Workman]

Hello Arielle,

Arielle said,
What I fail to understand is how fighting for a waiver is an effective means 
of fighting discrimination.

Marc says,
Near the end of my message, I said:

I admit that a waver might not do much to change the way classes are taught. 
Since my main point is that wavers are not necessarily the easier option, 
and that there are good reasons for pursuing them, I'm not troubled by that 
admission.

So I agree that receiving a waver doesn't necessarily do much to fight 
discrimination, but that was never really my point.  The fact that it does 
not necessarily do much to change the system does not mean that it equals 
taking the easy way out, or that it is, as you put it, "a very passive means 
of self-defense".

Arielle said,
On the other hand, insisting on taking the course, while also getting on the 
backs of those in authority about making the class accessible, is an active 
means of fighting injustice, which in the end will benefit the entire 
community and not just yourself.

Marc says,
You sneak a hugely presumptuous caveat in that sentence, and in doing so, I 
think you end up begging the question.  If I remove the caveat, "while also 
getting on the backs of those in authority about making the class 
accessible", the argument collapses.  Taking the class without getting on 
anyone's back, which seems just as likely an approach, does nothing to 
change the system either, and you end up only benefitting yourself.  Yet, 
the sentence can easily be rewritten:

On the other hand, insisting on taking an alternative course to complete the 
requirement, while also getting on the backs of those in authority about 
making the class accessible, is an active means of fighting injustice, which 
in the end will benefit the entire community and not just yourself.

It goes back to the point I made in my last message:

In other words, changing the way the classes are taught is independent of 
taking a waver or not.

You can accept the system as it is while taking the class, or you can fight 
to change the system while fighting for a waver.  Neither approach has a 
monopoly on changing the teaching method.  Both approaches, to me, seem 
equally likely, assuming we exclude the caveat you included, to do little to 
end the discrimination.

Cheers,

Marc

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Waver


> Mark and all,
>
> What I fail to understand is how fighting for a waiver is an effective
> means of fighting discrimination. To me, getting a waiver sounds like
> a very passive means of self-defense which does nothing to change the
> system. If you ask to have a class waived, and the waiver is granted,
> you and your concerns are out of the minds of the university
> administration. They don't have to worry about making courses
> accessible if all the disabled people can just opt out of them. On the
> other hand, insisting on taking the course, while also getting on the
> backs of those in authority about making the class accessible, is an
> active means of fighting injustice, which in the end will benefit the
> entire community and not just yourself. There's also the issue that
> discrimination complaints, in the real world, are not always heard or
> processed to our satisfaction. So why not complain, but while waiting
> for the complaint to prompt action, move along in the class and handle
> the accommodations necessary to be successful?
>
> Respectfully,
> Arielle
>
> On 1/13/11, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> You make some very persuasive points.  I hesitate to continue the debate,
>> and I suspect some would prefer that I don't, but I think it's such an
>> interesting topic with wider implications about how we see ourselves and
>> other blind people, so I will make a few points.
>>
>> SW,
>> What I take issue with is people making the jump from "I shouldn't have 
>> to"
>> to "I am right to not." The mere fact that, in a perfectly just world, 
>> one
>> would not have to do something, in no way means that, in the world as it
>> actually exists, doing that thing is not the right thing to do.
>>
>> MW,
>> I think this is the most significant point you make.  I don't really have 
>> a
>> response.  That may have been what I was doing.  At least, I need to give
>> this more thought.  The point, though, that I initially wanted to make 
>> comes
>> in response to something you say later.
>>
>> SW,
>> Read "requesting a waiver" as "taking the easy way out," which taking a
>> waiver certainly is.
>>
>> MW,
>> I don't know if this is just a throw away statement, or if you actually
>> believe it.  I think you do believe it, and this is really the attitude 
>> that
>> I think is wrong.  Taking a waver, or perhaps fighting for the right to
>> receive a waver, which is often what is required, is not necessarily the
>> easy way out.  It might be much easier to simply go along with the system 
>> as
>> it stands.  Hire the readers, or have the disability office hire the 
>> readers
>> for you, spend more time trying to understand the visually presented
>> concepts, walk away with a mediocre grade, do less well than you 
>> otherwise
>> would have done in your other classes, and take pride in the fact that 
>> you
>> didn't take a waver.  Or, stand up to your department/faculty, convince
>> those in charge that there are other ways you can demonstrate the bredth 
>> of
>> knowledge they are looking for, ways that will not require you to deal as
>> much with inaccessible materials, spend more time learning about the 
>> topics
>> that interest you and that you plan to work on later in life, get better
>> grades in all your classes, and take pride in the fact that you stood up 
>> for
>> yourself and nagotiated an alternative arrangement that suited everyone
>> better.  How is this taking the easy way out? The attitude I take issue 
>> with
>> is that a waver necessarily, or certainly, equals taking the easy way 
>> out.
>> You might think my reconstruction is farfetched, but I really don't think 
>> it
>> is.  And I think it is important to be less sweeping in our condemnation 
>> of
>> other's decisions.
>>
>> If I can convince you or others that fighting for a waver is not 
>> necessarily
>> taking the easy way out, and I don't mean that there are farfetched
>> scenarios in which it is acceptable, but that it is a legitimate option 
>> that
>> can be equally demanding, then that's all I'm aiming to do.  Just a 
>> little
>> less total rejection of the waver as an acceptable, and sometimes
>> appropriate, option.
>>
>> SW,
>> if we don't figure out how to get along in the world we inhabit, we will
>> never amass the power to change it.
>>
>> MW,
>> There is something lofty about this statement.  It seems obviously true 
>> at
>> first, but where's the justification, where's the argument to back it up.
>> After some reflection, it's really not all that obvious to me.  How does
>> learning how to get along as a slave bring one any closer to freedom? 
>> It's
>> also worth noting that finding an alternative way of completing a course
>> requirement is equally a means of getting along in the world we inhabit.
>> And this brings me to my last point.
>>
>> SW,
>> I think that the path toward justice in the classroom lies, in 
>> particular,
>> in making information, which is frequently presented in a visual fashion,
>> more readily available to blind students, and, in general, in teaching
>> courses with an eye toward reaching as many students as possible, and not 
>> in
>> granting students waivers or exemptions.
>>
>> MW,
>> I admit that a waver might not do much to change the way classes are 
>> taught.
>> Since my main point is that wavers are not necessarily the easier option,
>> and that there are good reasons for pursuing them, I'm not troubled by 
>> that
>> admission.  But it isn't clear to me that taking the class, hiring 
>> readers,
>> relying on classmates, spending more time and effort on a single class, 
>> and
>> generally placing the burden on the student rather than the professor and
>> the university, where it belongs, will do much to change the system 
>> either.
>> In other words, changing the way the classes are taught is independent of
>> taking a waver or not.  The course might remain as inaccessible despite 
>> the
>> student taking a waver, maybe even because the student went along with 
>> the
>> inaccessible class, rather than arguing that it is inaccessible and 
>> should
>> not be required.
>>
>> There are other things you say that I'm unsure of or disagree with, but I
>> think the most important points have been covered.
>>
>> As someone who took philosophy, you should be used to the fine-tooth-comb
>> treatment, but I apologize if it has been used to pick nits.  Not my
>> intention, though too often my habit.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Waver
>>
>>
>>> Marc,
>>>
>>> Here are some thoughts. I have taken your tack and entered comments in 
>>> the
>>> text as if it were a running dialogue.
>>>
>>> SW,
>>> Being blind, this class would present me with additional challenges and
>>> extra work not required of other students.
>>> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take it.
>>>
>>> Short argument, I know. Seems there must be a missing premise there
>>> somewhere, no? Maybe something like:
>>>
>>> People shouldn't have to do things that aren't fair.
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> Not sure you've presented the argument as strongly as you could have. 
>>> How
>>> about:
>>>
>>> Being blind, this class would present me with additional challenges and
>>> extra work not required of other students.
>>> Being require to complete extra work not required of other students,
>>> solely
>>> because I'm blind, is a form of discrimination.
>>> Students should not have to take classes that discriminate.
>>> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take this particular class.
>>>
>>> SW reply:
>>> In fact, I'm sure I didn't present the argument as strongly as it might
>>> have
>>> been presented, but, cut me some slack here, I wrote quickly and didn't
>>> know
>>> Professor Workman would be coming through with his fine-toothed comb.
>>> Seriously though, your formulation is more clear, though it still relies
>>> on
>>> the commonsense proposition that we should not have to do things that 
>>> are
>>> unfair/unjust (I use the two interchangeably). We shouldn't have to do
>>> things that are discriminatory, because those things are unfair, and we
>>> shouldn't have to do unfair things.
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> Now, you'll probably disagree, but don't disagree with the above 
>>> version.
>>> Instead, show me why the following one is wrong, or why the two cases 
>>> are
>>> not the same.
>>>
>>> Being a woman, this class would present me with additional challenges 
>>> and
>>> extra work not required of other students.
>>> Being require to complete extra work not required of other students,
>>> solely
>>> because I'm a woman, is a form of discrimination.
>>> Students should not have to take classes that discriminate.
>>> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take this particular class.
>>>
>>> SW reply,
>>> Actually, I agree with the argument in both cases. I shouldn't have to
>>> take
>>> classes that require more work of me solely because I am blind. Nor 
>>> should
>>>
>>> a
>>> woman have to take a class, God knows what it might be, that would 
>>> require
>>> more work of her solely because she is a woman. I recognize that my
>>> initial
>>> post reads as if I take issue with the claim that "people shouldn't have
>>> to
>>> do things that are unfair," or the parallel from your reformulation,
>>> "students shouldn't have to take classes that are discriminatory," but
>>> that
>>> is not the case. In an ideal world, such injustices would not exist. 
>>> What
>>> I
>>> take issue with is people making the jump from "I shouldn't have to" to 
>>> "I
>>> am right to not." The mere fact that, in a perfectly just world, one 
>>> would
>>> not have to do something, in no way means that, in the world as it
>>> actually
>>> exists, doing that thing is not the right thing to do. I think that the
>>> path
>>> toward justice in the classroom lies, in particular, in making
>>> information,
>>> which is frequently presented in a visual fashion, more readily 
>>> available
>>> to
>>> blind students, and, in general, in teaching courses with an eye toward
>>> reaching as many students as possible, and not in granting students
>>> waivers
>>> or exemptions. I would suspect that you agree with me here, as you have
>>> basically said as much.
>>>
>>> One other question you can get at by thinking about other parallel
>>> arguments
>>> is this: What if you take characteristics like sex or visual acuity out,
>>> and
>>> substitute instead characteristics that have more to do with academic
>>> success. Should dyslexics, in a just world, not be forced to take lit
>>> classes? Should those who struggle with math, in an ideal world, be 
>>> exempt
>>> from math courses? It seems obvious to me that the answer is no, so what
>>> is
>>> the difference? Is calculus not discriminatory to somebody who lacks the
>>> facility to deal with numbers? Is there something more fundamental to 
>>> the
>>> education of a person about math than art?
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> The point I would make is that a college that requires all students to
>>> take
>>> very visually oriented classes as part of completion of a degree has 
>>> been
>>> badly designed.  It has been designed on the assumption that only 
>>> sighted
>>> students will be attending the university.  And that is unfair, it's
>>> unjust,
>>>
>>> and it should be challenged.
>>>
>>> SW reply,
>>> I largely agree with you. What should be challenged is the way the
>>> information is presented, not what information is required to be 
>>> learned.
>>> As
>>> Arielle has rightly pointed out, math, science, statistics, economics, 
>>> and
>>> many other courses in which material is traditionally presented visually
>>> are
>>> by no means inherently visual. We should absolutely fight for better
>>> access,
>>> but in the time being, while access is still what it is, we have to 
>>> choose
>>> between two less than perfect options. 1) Skip the class, miss out on 
>>> the
>>> content, which obviously the university felt important, and send the
>>> message
>>> that we cannot compete, or 2) deal with the injustice of having to do
>>> extra
>>> work compared with that which we would have to do if we were sighted
>>> versions of ourselves. I'll pick number 2 any day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> SW,
>>> If we say we want to be treated like anybody else, we have to mean it. 
>>> The
>>> "when it suits me" Caveat undermines the whole stance.
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> If we say discrimination is wrong, we have to fight against it, in all 
>>> its
>>> forms, including those cases where blind students are forced to do extra
>>> work simply because they are blind.
>>>
>>> SW reply:
>>> Yes, we do have to fight it, but while we are fighting it, we have to 
>>> get
>>> by
>>> the best we can. As I say, neither skipping the class nor taking it and
>>> doing extra work are ideal, but unless we wish to suspend our academic
>>> careers until the battle is won, that is the choice we are left with, 
>>> and
>>> you know where I come down.
>>>
>>> SW,
>>> Wouldn't it be easier, and maybe more fair, to just have you skip the
>>> optional trip?"
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> Don't see how this would be more fair.  Perhaps if there were an 
>>> argument
>>> showing that this really would be more fair, then you'd have something,
>>> but
>>> without this, I think the analogy fails.
>>>
>>> SW reply:
>>> That was kind of tongue in cheek. Clearly there is no argument from
>>> justice
>>> or fairness on the part of the school here. What I was driving at was 
>>> the
>>> fact that, to a given individual, what is fair or just often 
>>> conveniently
>>> coincides with what would be best for them. Also, as I'm sure you
>>> recognize,
>>> an argument's not being a good one rarely stops people from making it, 
>>> and
>>> often with considerable effect. Surely if I had a class waved, and later
>>> wanted to do something that my school didn't want to let me do, the 
>>> waiver
>>> would come back to bite, or at least attempt to bite, me in the ass.
>>>
>>>
>>> SW,
>>> Fortunately, we in the NFB are working together to make things less
>>> difficult, and through our collective work we have built, and continue 
>>> to
>>> build, a brighter future for all blind people. I will, however, assure 
>>> you
>>> that none of our progress was ever attained by requesting a waiver.
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> It sort of depends on what you mean by a waver.  The NFB has asked for
>>> things to be altered for the benefit of the blind.  I read Walking Alone
>>> and
>>>
>>> Marching Together not that long ago, and if I recall, one of the early
>>> goals
>>>
>>> of the organization was to make it so that blind people could earn money
>>> in
>>> the market place without having welfare benefits cut back.  Is this not 
>>> a
>>> kind of a waver? Everyone else gets their benefits cut when they earn a
>>> certain income, but this shouldn't happen for blind people? This is one
>>> example that readily comes to mind.  I think pretty much any time a 
>>> change
>>> has been requested that is designed to make things easier for blind 
>>> people
>>> and will lead to differential treatment, this can be construed as a kind
>>> of
>>> a waver.
>>>
>>> SW reply:
>>> When I say we haven't made progress by "requesting a waiver" I, of 
>>> course,
>>> do not mean it literally. Taken literally, it doesn't make much sense at
>>> all. Read "requesting a waiver" as "taking the easy way out," which 
>>> taking
>>>
>>> a
>>> waiver certainly is.
>>>
>>> MW,
>>> I think if more energy were spent fighting the discriminatory design of
>>> products, services, and institutions, and less time spent coming up with
>>> clever ways of getting along within these badly designed systems, all
>>> blind
>>> people would be a lot better off, not just the clever ones.
>>>
>>> SW reply:
>>> Thinking about the ought and knowing the ideal are very useful, and, in
>>> fact, necessary if one wants to change things for the better, but it is
>>> dangerous to fixate on how things ought to be to the point where one
>>> becomes
>>> unwilling to deal with what actually is. Of course, full access and
>>> universal design are laudable goals. I share them with you. I agree that
>>> time and energy should be devoted to changing the system rather than
>>> exclusively to figuring out how to get along within the broken one we
>>> have,
>>> but at the same time, if we don't figure out how to get along in the 
>>> world
>>> we inhabit, we will never amass the power to change it. Both approaches
>>> are
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the interesting thoughts and forcing me to clarify my own
>>> thinking.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
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