[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

Fri Jun 10 03:31:05 UTC 2011

I don't think David Andrews was trying to keep us from talking about the
history between the organizations.  I think he didn't approve of the
distribution of the ACB's magazine on this list, which is pretty much for
the NFB, although we don't exclude ACB students.  I think Dave's objectin is
simply cuz he still considers the ACB our enemy.  Similar to countries at
war.  Yeah, the civil war is over, but the leadership cannot forget it.
It's possible he was also concerned that Chris was trying to convert people
into the ACB by distributing the magazine on this list.  Knowing Chris a
little from the list, I doubt this was his intention, although I can see why
David might've thought so.

Serena

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 11:00 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

Dave,
  I know you have the final say on what does and does not appear on
this list.  I certainly respect your decision.  However, I do have one
concern.
  Certainly correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the
purpose of this list is to discuss matters relevant to blind students.
 For me as a blind student, knowing the history and background of the
two major consumer organizations that represent blind people is
absolutely important, critical even.  Blind students, many of whom
having little or no exposure to either us or the Council, wonder why
there are such deep-seeded philosophical differences that keep our two
organizations from always working together.  Certainly I didn't
understand the huge differences between the NFB and ACB until I
studied their histories at length, and it was one of the biggest
factors that kept me out of the Federation.  I thought "why can't
these people just work together and get along?"  Had I been exposed to
this history earlier in my academic career, it's fair to say I would
have been more willing to network with other blind students in the
Federation at a younger age.  My perception was honestly that there
were two organizations, basically working for the same thing but
bickering over silly past history.  Once I was exposed to the "civil
war", and what really happened, I was more able to understand why the
two groups are not the same, and don't aim for exactly the same thing.
  So, all I'm trying to say is this issue is absolutely germane to
blind students.  We need to know our history, it helps us decide what
we're going to do now.  So I ask you, with civility and an open mind,
why this question is not appropriate for a list of blind students?
What makes this issue any different from the countless others we've
debated in the past?  Certainly it matters to us blind students and it
matters to us a great deal.  I honestly want to know what makes this
question not fit to be discussed here.
  Respectfully,
Kirt

On 6/9/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jorge,
>   I disagree with you on the last point.  I think Dave was trying to
> keep the debate which doubtless would have ensued from spamming
> everyone's inboxes. Although, now that I think about it, that makes me
> wonder why we've been free to debate ad noseum before about other
> things.
>   I've heard people in NFB leadership encourage the study of both NFB
> and ACB philosophy and history, some have even suggested the book
> People of Vision, on this list, as reading material for us.  So, no, I
> don't think they're trying to shelter us or keep us from reading ACB
> literature on our own time, I think Dave's trying to keep it from this
> NFB-sponsored public forum.  Do I agree with his decision?  With all
> cander, no.  But I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the
> NFB leadership is actively trying to keep us from studying the
> positions and dynamic changing views of the ACB.  If anything, I think
> they want future leaders to be as informed as possible about who
> they're dealing with in the political arena.
>   Respectfully,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> And--is not the NFB Braille Monitor a copyrighted property?
>>
>> Yet we encourage distributing it.
>>
>> I'm sure neither the NFB or ACB would have a problem with either being
>> distributed for free would they?
>>
>>
>> Or, and I say this with respect to everyone involved, is it just "not
>> good"
>> for the leadership if we hear the ACB's side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>  I do understand the Braille Forum is a copyrighted publication of
>>> the American Council of the Blind, so there might be legal/ethical
>>> issues with distributing it outside official ACB channels.  But I am
>>> slightly curious (and I say this with the utmost respect), would
>>> circulating an issue of the braille Monitor  describing the split in
>>> terms favorable to the Federation be "not appropriate for this list?"
>>>  Sincerely,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> David:
>>>> With all due respect, can we not have an open mind?
>>>>
>>>> After all: Chris isn't doing any obvious harm by presenting an opposing
>>>> view
>>>> is he?
>>>> Is he telling us to join the ACB?
>>>> No, and I take that as harmless.
>>>>
>>>> Why silence what could possibly be a question that will be brought up
>>>> by
>>>> future leaders anyway?
>>>>
>>>> Sooner or later we'll have to debate not the marrits or not of the
>>>> organization, but what we stand fore because as the world evolves, so
>>>> must
>>>> our stance on issues--we can never stand solid by one policy and say we
>>>> will
>>>> follow it until we die for if the target changes, then so must our
>>>> aim--and
>>>> we should be open to anything and consider all as long as our
>>>> principles
>>>> of
>>>> blind independence and first class citizenship are not at risk.
>>>>
>>>> You realize its not the ACB that you oppose, its their ideas, and are
>>>> we
>>>> not
>>>> open to discussion on this?
>>>> Just because we talk doesn't mean we do,
>>>> are you by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that there is a
>>>> hidden
>>>> threat in reading a politically contrary paper?
>>>>
>>>> I agree--if Chris were to do it every month I would see why,
>>>> but just once won't hurt anyone will it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:42 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>
>>>>> While what you are trying to do is "well meaning," it is
>>>>> inappropriate,
>>>>> and not in step with the purpose of this list.  This is not a debating
>>>>> society, and nor are we a vehicle to distribute the Braille Forum.
>>>>> This
>>>>> list is for NABS and blind students, not to discuss the founding of
>>>>> the
>>>>> ACB, or debate how it is different from the NFB.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Andrews, List Owner
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 02:55 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote:
>>>>>> Hmm...  that's interesting.  Well, I went out of my comfort zone a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> and signed up to get both the Monitor and the Braille Forum (ACB's
>>>>>> magazine) by email.  I will attach this month's Braille Forum.
>>>>>> Although
>>>>>> a lot of it has to do with the lagistics of their convention in Reno,
>>>>>> please especially take time to read the President's Message column
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Mitch Pomerantz.  You'll see there what he says about the NFB and Dr.
>>>>>> TenBroek and Dr.
>>>>>> Jernigan, while comparing the ACB's founding to that of the United
>>>>>> States.  What do you all think of this? Am I stirring the pot too
>>>>>> much?
>>>>>> Oh heck...  another little debate won't hurt.  * Smile!
>>>>>
>>>>>
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