[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

[Chris Nusbaum]

Dave,

I do agree that you run things with a light hand and I appreciate 
the fact that you actually moderate and participate in this list.  
I use to be on the BrailleNote users list, which they said was 
monitored by HumanWare staff, but whenever we posted a question 
that stumped the everyday users or provided a suggestion to 
HumanWare, it seemed to go unnoticed by their staff.  We didn't 
see anyone from HumanWare ever post to the list, let alone 
monitor it.  So I was glad when I joined this and other NFB 
lists, and it gave me the name and email address of the moderator 
right on the page! I'm not sure how your computer or email client 
is set up, but I attached the Forum in three formats, Word, plain 
text (or TXT) and plain Braille (or BRF.) I did this only so 
everyone could access it, and we wouldn't be getting emails from 
people saying, "I can't open this Word file, I have a Mac or a 
notetaker.  Please send it in this format," and I wouldn't be 
sending the same file a bunch of times.  Just clarifying! Thank 
you for your monitoring on this list and I respect your decision 
as the moderator.

 Chris

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--- Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list	
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:38:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

I will say two things, and then ask everybody to just move
on.  Frankly what I objected the most was attaching three 
versions of
the Braille Forum to a message.  It just isn't necessary for the
discussion of one article.  and ...  in general I think I run 
things
with a pretty light hand -- the other endless debates prove that, 
but
when I do say something why is it that everybody feels compelled 
to
argue with me.?

Dave


Dave,
   I know you have the final say on what does and does not appear 
on
this list.  I certainly respect your decision.  However, I do 
have one
concern.
   Certainly correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the
purpose of this list is to discuss matters relevant to blind 
students.
  For me as a blind student, knowing the history and background 
of the
two major consumer organizations that represent blind people is
absolutely important, critical even.  Blind students, many of 
whom
having little or no exposure to either us or the Council, wonder 
why
there are such deep-seeded philosophical differences that keep 
our two
organizations from always working together.  Certainly I didn't
understand the huge differences between the NFB and ACB until I
studied their histories at length, and it was one of the biggest
factors that kept me out of the Federation.  I thought "why can't
these people just work together and get along?"  Had I been 
exposed to
this history earlier in my academic career, it's fair to say I 
would
have been more willing to network with other blind students in 
the
Federation at a younger age.  My perception was honestly that 
there
were two organizations, basically working for the same thing but
bickering over silly past history.  Once I was exposed to the 
"civil
war", and what really happened, I was more able to understand why 
the
two groups are not the same, and don't aim for exactly the same 
thing.
   So, all I'm trying to say is this issue is absolutely germane 
to
blind students.  We need to know our history, it helps us decide 
what
we're going to do now.  So I ask you, with civility and an open 
mind,
why this question is not appropriate for a list of blind 
students?
What makes this issue any different from the countless others 
we've
debated in the past?  Certainly it matters to us blind students 
and it
matters to us a great deal.  I honestly want to know what makes 
this
question not fit to be discussed here.
   Respectfully,
Kirt

On 6/9/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Jorge,
   I disagree with you on the last point.  I think Dave was 
trying to
 keep the debate which doubtless would have ensued from spamming
 everyone's inboxes.  Although, now that I think about it, that 
makes me
 wonder why we've been free to debate ad noseum before about 
other
 things.
   I've heard people in NFB leadership encourage the study of 
both NFB
 and ACB philosophy and history, some have even suggested the 
book
 People of Vision, on this list, as reading material for us.  So, 
no, I
 don't think they're trying to shelter us or keep us from reading 
ACB
 literature on our own time, I think Dave's trying to keep it 
from this
 NFB-sponsored public forum.  Do I agree with his decision?  With 
all
 cander, no.  But I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that 
the
 NFB leadership is actively trying to keep us from studying the
 positions and dynamic changing views of the ACB.  If anything, I 
think
 they want future leaders to be as informed as possible about who
 they're dealing with in the political arena.
   Respectfully,
 Kirt

 On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
 And--is not the NFB Braille Monitor a copyrighted property?

 Yet we encourage distributing it.

 I'm sure neither the NFB or ACB would have a problem with either 
being
 distributed for free would they?


 Or, and I say this with respect to everyone involved, is it just 
"not
 good"
 for the leadership if we hear the ACB's side?





 On Jun 9, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

 David,
  I do understand the Braille Forum is a copyrighted publication 
of
 the American Council of the Blind, so there might be 
legal/ethical
 issues with distributing it outside official ACB channels.  But 
I am
 slightly curious (and I say this with the utmost respect), would
 circulating an issue of the braille Monitor  describing the 
split in
 terms favorable to the Federation be "not appropriate for this 
list?"
  Sincerely,
 Kirt

 On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
 David:
 With all due respect, can we not have an open mind?

 After all: Chris isn't doing any obvious harm by presenting an 
opposing
 view
 is he?
 Is he telling us to join the ACB?
 No, and I take that as harmless.

 Why silence what could possibly be a question that will be 
brought up
 by
 future leaders anyway?

 Sooner or later we'll have to debate not the marrits or not of 
the
 organization, but what we stand fore because as the world 
evolves, so
 must
 our stance on issues--we can never stand solid by one policy and 
say we
 will
 follow it until we die for if the target changes, then so must 
our
 aim--and
 we should be open to anything and consider all as long as our
 principles
 of
 blind independence and first class citizenship are not at risk.

 You realize its not the ACB that you oppose, its their ideas, 
and are
 we
 not
 open to discussion on this?
 Just because we talk doesn't mean we do,
 are you by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that there 
is a
 hidden
 threat in reading a politically contrary paper?

 I agree--if Chris were to do it every month I would see why,
 but just once won't hurt anyone will it?


 Jorge


 On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:42 PM, David Andrews wrote:

 Chris:

 While what you are trying to do is "well meaning," it is
 inappropriate,
 and not in step with the purpose of this list.  This is not a 
debating
 society, and nor are we a vehicle to distribute the Braille 
Forum.
 This
 list is for NABS and blind students, not to discuss the founding 
of
 the
 ACB, or debate how it is different from the NFB.

 David Andrews, List Owner



 At 02:55 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote:
 Hmm...  that's interesting.  Well, I went out of my comfort zone 
a
 little
 and signed up to get both the Monitor and the Braille Forum 
(ACB's
 magazine) by email.  I will attach this month's Braille Forum.
 Although
 a lot of it has to do with the lagistics of their convention in 
Reno,
 please especially take time to read the President's Message 
column
 from
 Mitch Pomerantz.  You'll see there what he says about the NFB 
and Dr.
 TenBroek and Dr.
 Jernigan, while comparing the ACB's founding to that of the 
United
 States.  What do you all think of this? Am I stirring the pot 
too
 much?
 Oh heck...  another little debate won't hurt.  * Smile!


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