[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

[Kirt Manwaring]

Chris,
  For your information, the txt and doc versions of the forum didn't
come through at all in anything resembling a legible format.  It
looked like they weren't translated from braille to text, or something
like that.

On 6/13/11, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I do agree that you run things with a light hand and I appreciate
> the fact that you actually moderate and participate in this list.
> I use to be on the BrailleNote users list, which they said was
> monitored by HumanWare staff, but whenever we posted a question
> that stumped the everyday users or provided a suggestion to
> HumanWare, it seemed to go unnoticed by their staff.  We didn't
> see anyone from HumanWare ever post to the list, let alone
> monitor it.  So I was glad when I joined this and other NFB
> lists, and it gave me the name and email address of the moderator
> right on the page! I'm not sure how your computer or email client
> is set up, but I attached the Forum in three formats, Word, plain
> text (or TXT) and plain Braille (or BRF.) I did this only so
> everyone could access it, and we wouldn't be getting emails from
> people saying, "I can't open this Word file, I have a Mac or a
> notetaker.  Please send it in this format," and I wouldn't be
> sending the same file a bunch of times.  Just clarifying! Thank
> you for your monitoring on this list and I respect your decision
> as the moderator.
>
>  Chris
>
> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
> To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near
> you, just click on this link to their national Web site:
> www.campabilities.org.
>
> The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in
> Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click
> on this link to learn more and to contribute:
> www.icanfoundation.info.
>
> PS: Last chance to get your tickets for the I C.A.N.
> Foundation's Night Out at the Frederick Keys fundraiser on June
> 4th! They're only 6 dollars per ticket and all proceeds go to the
> Foundation to help the blind and visually impaired youth in
> Maryland! Get your tickets today by contacting Wendy Nusbaum by
> email at wendynusbaum at yahoo.com.  Visit the above link to the I
> C.A.N.  Foundation Web site for more information or join us on
> Facebook at "I C.A.N.  Foundation: nonprofit organization." Hope
> to see you at the game!!!
>
> --- Sent from my BrailleNote
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list	
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:38:02 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>
> I will say two things, and then ask everybody to just move
> on.  Frankly what I objected the most was attaching three
> versions of
> the Braille Forum to a message.  It just isn't necessary for the
> discussion of one article.  and ...  in general I think I run
> things
> with a pretty light hand -- the other endless debates prove that,
> but
> when I do say something why is it that everybody feels compelled
> to
> argue with me.?
>
> Dave
>
>
> Dave,
>    I know you have the final say on what does and does not appear
> on
> this list.  I certainly respect your decision.  However, I do
> have one
> concern.
>    Certainly correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the
> purpose of this list is to discuss matters relevant to blind
> students.
>   For me as a blind student, knowing the history and background
> of the
> two major consumer organizations that represent blind people is
> absolutely important, critical even.  Blind students, many of
> whom
> having little or no exposure to either us or the Council, wonder
> why
> there are such deep-seeded philosophical differences that keep
> our two
> organizations from always working together.  Certainly I didn't
> understand the huge differences between the NFB and ACB until I
> studied their histories at length, and it was one of the biggest
> factors that kept me out of the Federation.  I thought "why can't
> these people just work together and get along?"  Had I been
> exposed to
> this history earlier in my academic career, it's fair to say I
> would
> have been more willing to network with other blind students in
> the
> Federation at a younger age.  My perception was honestly that
> there
> were two organizations, basically working for the same thing but
> bickering over silly past history.  Once I was exposed to the
> "civil
> war", and what really happened, I was more able to understand why
> the
> two groups are not the same, and don't aim for exactly the same
> thing.
>    So, all I'm trying to say is this issue is absolutely germane
> to
> blind students.  We need to know our history, it helps us decide
> what
> we're going to do now.  So I ask you, with civility and an open
> mind,
> why this question is not appropriate for a list of blind
> students?
> What makes this issue any different from the countless others
> we've
> debated in the past?  Certainly it matters to us blind students
> and it
> matters to us a great deal.  I honestly want to know what makes
> this
> question not fit to be discussed here.
>    Respectfully,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/9/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Jorge,
>    I disagree with you on the last point.  I think Dave was
> trying to
>  keep the debate which doubtless would have ensued from spamming
>  everyone's inboxes.  Although, now that I think about it, that
> makes me
>  wonder why we've been free to debate ad noseum before about
> other
>  things.
>    I've heard people in NFB leadership encourage the study of
> both NFB
>  and ACB philosophy and history, some have even suggested the
> book
>  People of Vision, on this list, as reading material for us.  So,
> no, I
>  don't think they're trying to shelter us or keep us from reading
> ACB
>  literature on our own time, I think Dave's trying to keep it
> from this
>  NFB-sponsored public forum.  Do I agree with his decision?  With
> all
>  cander, no.  But I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that
> the
>  NFB leadership is actively trying to keep us from studying the
>  positions and dynamic changing views of the ACB.  If anything, I
> think
>  they want future leaders to be as informed as possible about who
>  they're dealing with in the political arena.
>    Respectfully,
>  Kirt
>
>  On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>  And--is not the NFB Braille Monitor a copyrighted property?
>
>  Yet we encourage distributing it.
>
>  I'm sure neither the NFB or ACB would have a problem with either
> being
>  distributed for free would they?
>
>
>  Or, and I say this with respect to everyone involved, is it just
> "not
>  good"
>  for the leadership if we hear the ACB's side?
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Jun 9, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>  David,
>   I do understand the Braille Forum is a copyrighted publication
> of
>  the American Council of the Blind, so there might be
> legal/ethical
>  issues with distributing it outside official ACB channels.  But
> I am
>  slightly curious (and I say this with the utmost respect), would
>  circulating an issue of the braille Monitor  describing the
> split in
>  terms favorable to the Federation be "not appropriate for this
> list?"
>   Sincerely,
>  Kirt
>
>  On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>  David:
>  With all due respect, can we not have an open mind?
>
>  After all: Chris isn't doing any obvious harm by presenting an
> opposing
>  view
>  is he?
>  Is he telling us to join the ACB?
>  No, and I take that as harmless.
>
>  Why silence what could possibly be a question that will be
> brought up
>  by
>  future leaders anyway?
>
>  Sooner or later we'll have to debate not the marrits or not of
> the
>  organization, but what we stand fore because as the world
> evolves, so
>  must
>  our stance on issues--we can never stand solid by one policy and
> say we
>  will
>  follow it until we die for if the target changes, then so must
> our
>  aim--and
>  we should be open to anything and consider all as long as our
>  principles
>  of
>  blind independence and first class citizenship are not at risk.
>
>  You realize its not the ACB that you oppose, its their ideas,
> and are
>  we
>  not
>  open to discussion on this?
>  Just because we talk doesn't mean we do,
>  are you by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that there
> is a
>  hidden
>  threat in reading a politically contrary paper?
>
>  I agree--if Chris were to do it every month I would see why,
>  but just once won't hurt anyone will it?
>
>
>  Jorge
>
>
>  On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:42 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>  Chris:
>
>  While what you are trying to do is "well meaning," it is
>  inappropriate,
>  and not in step with the purpose of this list.  This is not a
> debating
>  society, and nor are we a vehicle to distribute the Braille
> Forum.
>  This
>  list is for NABS and blind students, not to discuss the founding
> of
>  the
>  ACB, or debate how it is different from the NFB.
>
>  David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
>
>  At 02:55 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote:
>  Hmm...  that's interesting.  Well, I went out of my comfort zone
> a
>  little
>  and signed up to get both the Monitor and the Braille Forum
> (ACB's
>  magazine) by email.  I will attach this month's Braille Forum.
>  Although
>  a lot of it has to do with the lagistics of their convention in
> Reno,
>  please especially take time to read the President's Message
> column
>  from
>  Mitch Pomerantz.  You'll see there what he says about the NFB
> and Dr.
>  TenBroek and Dr.
>  Jernigan, while comparing the ACB's founding to that of the
> United
>  States.  What do you all think of this? Am I stirring the pot
> too
>  much?
>  Oh heck...  another little debate won't hurt.  * Smile!
>
>
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