[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Darian Smith dsmithnfb at gmail.com
Sun Jun 19 17:52:01 UTC 2011 

two points  to touch  on here:
 1. constitutionally, if you pay dues, you are a member, so if you
come and pay the five dollars at the meeting you,  by  definition are
a member of nabs.

2. The  nabs board did  put out an open call to the lists  regarding
an election forum.    However, there was very little response to this
( three people, I believe).
  Best,
  Darian

On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris,
>   At the risk of offending my good friends in the Council, I'll say
> there's a reason the Federation gets more done and leave it at that.
>   Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter,
>>   Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good.  If we hadn't reinvented
>> the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting.  If we hadn't reinvented
>> the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around.  Without us reinventing the
>> wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
>> personal opinion a bout that may be.  I say sometimes the wheel needs
>> to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.  A
>> counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least for a
>> devision the size of NABS.  I wouldn't say it would be better for the
>> NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
>> elections the way that works best for them?
>>   Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jorge,
>>>   I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member can
>>> come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
>>> influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have that
>>> kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, make
>>> the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so they
>>> can register and become a member online.
>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>     The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
>>>> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned
>>>> NABS
>>>> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
>>>> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear.
>>>> Every
>>>> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing
>>>> but
>>>> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and
>>>> more
>>>> of
>>>> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly
>>>> get
>>>> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
>>>> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting
>>>> when
>>>> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the
>>>> wheel.
>>>>
>>>>     Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
>>>> something
>>>> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important
>>>> things
>>>> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying
>>>> with
>>>> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi George,
>>>> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
>>>> and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
>>>> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
>>>> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
>>>> members vote.
>>>> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
>>>> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
>>>> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
>>>> beforehand?
>>>> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
>>>> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
>>>> that might game the system.
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>> With all due respect,
>>>>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> That is to say,
>>>>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>>>>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>>>>> current
>>>>> membership to begin with,  let alone new members.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would
>>>>> mean
>>>>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>>>>
>>>>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>>>>> where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB members
>>>>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person. Sure,
>>>>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>>>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>>>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>>>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>>>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>>>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short, even
>>>>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>>>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>>>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>>>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>>>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>>>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>>>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>  You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm going
>>>>>>> to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider the
>>>>>>> following.
>>>>>>>  We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>>>>> the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for
>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  I
>>>>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in the
>>>>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>>>>> long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all the
>>>>>>> candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that allows
>>>>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond that, I
>>>>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>>>>  Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were running
>>>>>>> for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who aren't
>>>>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm not
>>>>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that
>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>> of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is, that
>>>>>>> makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations open
>>>>>>> that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
>>>>>>>  But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, if
>>>>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast
>>>>>>> server
>>>>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those due-paying
>>>>>>> members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give the
>>>>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for it?
>>>>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  Am
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
>>>>>>>  All the best,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be
>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in light
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and defend
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen. For
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of
>>>>>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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-- 
Darian Smith

“My secret?  See it, and stay focused on it.”

— Shaquille O'Neal

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