[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Sun Jun 19 18:05:01 UTC 2011

Hi all:
I went over voice voting ad nauseum in 2009, but for the record I’ll
say it yet again. We always start each election with a voice vote. The
only time standing, card, or other counted votes are used is when the
voice vote is inconclusive. I will start each contest with a voice
vote and then either rule one candidate the winner or request a
counted vote. If I rule someone the winner and the losing candidate(s)
disagree with my judgment, they can request a counted vote. So, voice
voting is the primary voting method, and counted voting will be used
only  when voice voting fails to reveal who received a majority of the
votes.
Arielle

On 6/19/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
> two points  to touch  on here:
>  1. constitutionally, if you pay dues, you are a member, so if you
> come and pay the five dollars at the meeting you,  by  definition are
> a member of nabs.
>
> 2. The  nabs board did  put out an open call to the lists  regarding
> an election forum.    However, there was very little response to this
> ( three people, I believe).
>   Best,
>   Darian
>
> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Chris,
>>   At the risk of offending my good friends in the Council, I'll say
>> there's a reason the Federation gets more done and leave it at that.
>>   Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Peter,
>>>   Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good.  If we hadn't reinvented
>>> the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting.  If we hadn't reinvented
>>> the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around.  Without us reinventing the
>>> wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
>>> personal opinion a bout that may be.  I say sometimes the wheel needs
>>> to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.  A
>>> counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least for a
>>> devision the size of NABS.  I wouldn't say it would be better for the
>>> NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
>>> elections the way that works best for them?
>>>   Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jorge,
>>>>   I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member can
>>>> come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
>>>> influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have that
>>>> kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, make
>>>> the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so they
>>>> can register and become a member online.
>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>     The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
>>>>> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned
>>>>> NABS
>>>>> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
>>>>> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear.
>>>>> Every
>>>>> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing
>>>>> but
>>>>> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and
>>>>> more
>>>>> of
>>>>> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly
>>>>> get
>>>>> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
>>>>> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting
>>>>> when
>>>>> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the
>>>>> wheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
>>>>> something
>>>>> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important
>>>>> things
>>>>> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying
>>>>> with
>>>>> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi George,
>>>>> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
>>>>> and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
>>>>> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
>>>>> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
>>>>> members vote.
>>>>> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
>>>>> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
>>>>> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
>>>>> beforehand?
>>>>> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
>>>>> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
>>>>> that might game the system.
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>> With all due respect,
>>>>>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is to say,
>>>>>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>>>>>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> membership to begin with,  let alone new members.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would
>>>>>> mean
>>>>>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>>>>>> where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB members
>>>>>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person.
>>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>>>>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>>>>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>>>>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>>>>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>>>>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short,
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>>>>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>>>>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>>>>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>>>>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>>>>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>>>>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>  You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>>>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider the
>>>>>>>> following.
>>>>>>>>  We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>>>>>> the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for
>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  I
>>>>>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>>>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>>>>>> long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all the
>>>>>>>> candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that
>>>>>>>> allows
>>>>>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>>>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond that,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>>>>>  Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were
>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>> for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who
>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>>>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm not
>>>>>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that
>>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>> of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations open
>>>>>>>> that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
>>>>>>>>  But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, if
>>>>>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>>>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>>>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast
>>>>>>>> server
>>>>>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those
>>>>>>>> due-paying
>>>>>>>> members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give the
>>>>>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for
>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't
>>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>>>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  Am
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
>>>>>>>>  All the best,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be
>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in
>>>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and
>>>>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen.
>>>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of
>>>>>>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Darian Smith
>
> “My secret?  See it, and stay focused on it.”
>
> — Shaquille O'Neal
>
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-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org